Winter boots

DougPaul said:

....If you go out with inadequate boots, you risk frostbite and possible permanent damage.

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What's the big deal, it's not like you can't walk around town with toeless feet

Up to this point I've been wearing LaSportiva Makalu's year round (all leather, steel shank, wicked durable Skywalker sole that accepts step in crampons) and use Smartwool liners and their expedition weight socks (also year round) for my padding/insulation. I've been out in some pretty cold stuff and been fine, but strictly peak bagging. Hopefully I'll be rich someday and have a lineup like NH_Mtn_Hiker

Seriously though, my tendency is to go light as I figure if I'm dry I can always pick up the pace a little to get/stay warm. That is why a lot of times you'll catch me hiking in just a long underwear top and using non-insulated leather work gloves in some pretty cold stuff. Of course I'm not the sharpest ice axe in the mountains

UNFROZENCAVEMAN said:

What's the big deal, it's not like you can't walk around town with toeless feet

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Ask Rheinhold Messner--he only has one toe left. Others have lost more.

(In case anyone does not know who Messner is, he is the first to have completed the greatest list--the 14 8000 meter peaks.)

Doug

I would also put in a word for IME (in N Conway) who rent out plastics and who sell ex-rental and consignment boots. I picked up my pair of Koflach's for $75 there - NH Fish and Game were selling them! As with all plastics, new and used, wear them for at least an hour in the store (bring a book!) before deciding on the right size - plastics are very unforgiving of the wrong size choice....

Winter Boots

I have a pair of Columbia Ice Fields and find them very comfortable. I started winter hiking last year and these were the only boot I used with the exception of one hike. They worked well with snowshoes and strap-on crampons. The crampon needed to be in a hinged configuration because of boot flex. I was told these and the shorter version referenced by Bob & Geri are the stiffest boots available from Columbia.

They saw quite a few miles and were always comfortable. The longest hike was a little over 25 miles and they worked well.

The crampons used were Petzl Charlet Vasak. I swapped out the standard linking bar for their long one to handle the larger boot.

Sorel Conquests for me - not sure if I will ever make the plunge for plastics. Mine are rated to minus 40 - I have worn them down to 5 below with no issues at all. They fit my crampons fine, but I would be sure to check that out before purchasing. Very waterproof - I would purchase some decent footbeds for them. Wearing them tomorrow...

I think that was one of my concerns, wearing crampons and snowshoes with a leather boot. It seems that question has been answered, now it's just choosing the boot. There's a lot of info out there, thanks!

Bobby said:

I think that was one of my concerns, wearing crampons and snowshoes with a leather boot.

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The issue for fitting crampons to boots is flexibility, not construction materials. (The step-in bindings are much more critical than the older-style strap-ons.)

A good snowshoe binding should fit a wide range of boots.

FWIW, I've used rigid leather technical double boots with both crampons and snowshoes for many years. They don't have any ledges or grooves for mounting crampons, but strap bindings work perfectly well.

Doug

Bobby -
Also - on the fit side of things - bring what you have when you buy - I had my boots before I purchased my crampons so I brought my boots to the stores to be sure they would work. DougPaul is right - if you do not have plastic boots be sure to get crampons that have some flex. My crampons just fit my boots (Montrail Torre's (11M) and Sorel Conquests (11.) I have Petzl Charlet crampons (very similar to Grivel G-10s) from Hilton's in Boston and they fit nice and snug.
Snowshoes fit most boots easily - not a problem at all.

I have Koflachs that I reluctantly bought last year for some really cold day use. Other than that I am on my 2nd pair of North Face Chillkats. They look to be pretty similar to the Columbia offering. They hold MSR snowshoes and Grivel G10 crampons just fine, and to be honest I prefer them over the plastics.
Damon

I love leather boots and have never used plastics, even for ice climbing. That being said, I am picking up some Koflach Degree's for the winter as I'm outclimbing my current gear. But, for hiking, I use 2 sets of boots, one for above 20° and one for below. The ones for above are reserved for day hikes in warmer weather and they're Merrel Yukon's, which are uninsulated but well waterproofed. They're lighter than my winter boots, which are 800 gm Thinsulate Gore-Tex Danner's. I've camped and hiked in them to -40°, but in temps below 0° I use a vapor barrier liner to avoid any icing problems from the inside. The only problem I have is that they are large, barely fitting into my crampons, which are Petzl Ecrins with the strap binding and pivot shank. One thing not already mentioned is that if you're not careful with a leather boot, you can "pick" the leather with the crampons, tearing it. They can be repaired though, both of mine were repaired very inexpensively by a cobbler, but they still show their usage with all the crampon scars.

Do a search on here to find out what waterproofing to use. I usually go back and forth between Sno-Seal and Huberd's Boot Oil, depending on the conditions.

BugabooTre

Bobby,
I have Columbia Bugabootre's which are rated to -25. I haven't used them with crampons, but they are quite comfortable and great with snowshoes or stabilicers. I've never used them below 0 but they've kept me warm in the single digits if I keep moving. Start to feel the chill if I stand still for too long, so I'm not sure I'd want to overnight with them, but that could just be me.

For this transitional season I have used my leather Merrill Explorers which are gore tex lined. They've been OK in not too deep snow, but I haven't gone over the tops with them. Again, you don't want to stand still for very long.

I have been using Koflach Degrees for mountaineering (pretty good), winter hiking (ok), winter camping (great because of removable liner), and ice climbing (a little sloppy but they work fine), and if I'm not going too fast they are fine on most days - they gave me a weird ankle bang sometimes.

This year I'm getting La Sportiva Nepal Evo GTXs - I'll probably use those for everything other than winter camping - or maybe even that, we'll see.

Koflach Degrees

I made do with a tall insulated Sorrel pack boot, as well as wholly inadequate leather hikers beforehand, but I am truly grateful for my Koflach Degrees. For warmth, waterproofness, and overall usefullness in all kinds of winter conditions, I would not be without them. I may even put them to the test trying some ice-climbing this season, but so far I have only used them for winter peak-bagging, and would have them for that use only regardless.

After this past weekends hike in everything from mud to lots of water to powder to ice I have decided that all my hikes until next summer comes around are going to be with my Koflachs on my feet. I know my feet will stay dry and warm.

DougPaul said:

Ask Rheinhold Messner--he only has one toe left. Others have lost more.

(In case anyone does not know who Messner is, he is the first to have completed the greatest list--the 14 8000 meter peaks.)

Doug

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Well, I have the Bugga-boots, and the Ice Dragons from Columbia as well as Koflachs Degres and Sorel pack boots. For me all different and for different applications.

My Bugga-boots get the most use and are comfortable for me down to zero degrees.

Now, having said that, I ALWAYS WEAR VAPOR BARRIER SOCKS!!!

This extends the useful range of every pair of winter boots I use.

Using the VB socks permit the insulating layers of the over sock (if used) and the boot insulation to do what they were designed to do more effectively. That is, keep your feet WARM and DRY. The VB socks prevent my socks and boots from my sweaty feet.

Only being concerned about moisture transfer from the outside in is not good enough. In harsh winter conditions one should always be concerned about moisture transfer from the inside out.

Zer0-G

Where does one get Vapor Barrier socks???

The concept of Vapor Barrier socks makes perfect sense to me. Stop water vapor from getting into the sock where it will condense. I've seen hikers at a trailhead putting breadbags on their feet before putting on their socks. There must be something available off the shelf? I've never noticed them in stores before, but then I've never looked or asked for them before. But I think this winter I'll look for some to add to my gear bag.

Jazzbo said:

Where does one get vapor barrier socks?

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Mountaineering stores have carried them. A quick search brings up some possibilities: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vapor+barrier+socks&btnG=Google+Search
Another seaarch brings up even more: http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=vapor+barrier+socks&btnG=Search+Froogle

Before you go out and buy, try the plastic bag trick. Typical usage is: thin liner, VB sock, thick wool insulating sock. You can also add another plastic bag on the outside if external water is an issue.

A cool-footed friend has told me that they help keep her feet warmer. Never tried them myself.

Doug

Thoughts....

Hi Bobby -

You likely have already made your purchase, but in case you haven't.....

For boots, i have both plastic and leather boots as do many here. I used to use pac-boots "back in the day", but they didn't work well with crampons (too big and/or strap-on crampons = cold fingers). They simply didn't climb well for me - the sole was too floppy. The newer iterations or cross-overs *may* provide a wide range of use, but there can be a steep price for compromise in the mountains.

My current (for the last 3 years) strategy for winter camping and climbing is to use my leather boots (LaSport Nepal Extremes) with vbl socks inside and (OR Brooks Range) overboots outside. This has kept my cold-prone feet dry and toasty to -30F (so far!).

With crampons used in this configuration, the new-matic type bindings work b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l-l-y (mine are BD Sabretooth Clips). For example, last winter i was on a very steep snow slope where i *should* have already had my cramps on . The BD Clip's nylon-resin toe piece simply went over the boot toe then strapped on and i was climbing safely in less than 5 mins - wearing my gloves the whole time!

Plastics are lovely for winter camping and the warm liners in the AM are sooo nice! BUT, they are heavy - though the Degree's are not too bad.

As for vbl socks - there are several places (and price points!) to buy them - campmor being where i picked up my last pair. I used the breadbag version (as suggested by my Grandmother who was from New Brunswick) early on and eventually "graduated" to stonger materials - essentially coated nylons. The sil-nylon vbl socks from integral designs in Calgary, Canada look quite promising. BTW, g-tex "vbl" socks don't work so well - they do actually release moisture (as advertised), unfortunately right into your insulating sock.

Also, using temp ratings for boots is not a good idea as has been mentioned. There is more to having warm feet by ensuring proper hydration and staying active than advertised temperature ratings "attainable" through (questionably) generous insulation. Why do plastic boot manufacturers not put a temperature rating on their boots? This is because it is simply too subjective.

HTH,

fm

Vapor Barrier Socks

Jazzbo,
I've tried a few different brands and the best I've found are available from
rbhdesigns.com - sorry I dont know how to give you a dirrect link, Dave

I've used Pac boots for years for general outdoor winter activities (read: shoveling), and when it came time to buy a new pair, I wanted something with some bite in the sole for some light winter hiking. Not having the budget to get two pair of boots, I settled on the Kamik Frontrange and have been quite happy. They're a little warm for hiking in late fall or early spring, but are perfect for winter. They work very well with my MSR snowshoes, though I have to be sure to leave room near the toe for the snowshoes to fully rotate. They're not at all like the "floppy Sorels" that I used to own. I haven't had the chance to field test them above treeline yet, but they do seem to work great for hikes in the trees.