Solo hiking above treeline in winter

This is getting a bit off topic, but - the trek between Muir and Paradise should be a cakewalk - but it's not always. Several people have died - some from hypothermia, and others because they've wandering over to the glaciers on the sides and died from falls. A couple of years ago I did that route with a friend - we have great weather going up, but coming down - the clouds and fog rolled in, and we were going wand to wand. I'd go ahead, find the next wand, then he'd come to my voice. We'd take turns - it was a bit slow but we got down OK. Makes a good case for not doing (some) peaks solo. Either that, or wait in your tent/shelter for better conditions.

Pig Pen said:

...However, with all due respect, I am talking about hiking not skiing...

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I don't see the difference. The point is that in winter, the "safety" line is much finer. While I could have survived overnight with my injuries if it were summer, I could not have survived in winter. Just something to think about.

The way I look at it, it's not the 1,000,000+ trees I missed: it's the one I hit. In winter, that seriously factored in when trying to survive.

I'm with Darren on this one. Do what you want, but don't fool yourself into thinking that there is no less danger solo in winter than at other times. The more "factors" that you add, the higher the danger, and the finer the line you cut. I think it is perfectly fine to hike above treeline in winter. You just need to keep in mind that additional factors affecting your safety, and their increased consequences need to be considered. You also need to remember that no matter how good your "inner voice" is, it pales in comparison to having a hiking companion tell you that you might be having issues (as Arm needed to do on an easy winter trip where I just happened to take an unplanned swim and was slowly becoming hypothermic)

Yes, hike your own hike... but do so well prepared, intelligently, and well-informed.

DougPaul said:

Sure, accurate data would be nice, but one can still reach useful conclusions with qualtative data and qualtative results. The math is consistent with lower risk practice.

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OK, so if you want to use math with limited data, then figure this. Assuming you use the same low risk practices at all times, and your risk of serious accident remains a constant incident / per number of hours in the backcountry, then an individuals chance of accident does not matter if solo or if in a group. Eventually if you spend enough hours in the backcountry, you WILL have a major accident, solo or in a group. The real question all along here has been "is it more dangerous to hike above treeline in winter solo vs in a group". If eventually you will have a major accident then the only question is what happens after the accident. solo = bad news bears, group = chance. So solo is more dangerous. And so far no one has been able to prove it otherwise and I don't see how they could.

A couple other observations about this thread:

I haven't seen any members here tell any other members here not to go solo or not to do what they want to do and are prepared to accept the risks of.

It is easy for the newbies out there to get lulled into the idea that solo hiking in winter is "not that much more dangerous". What they need to realize is that it is not the chance of accident is the what happens after the accident that is important. It is easy to say "I'll stick to popular trails and someone will come across me if I get hurt". The Franconia Ridge can be a zoo, yet I've spent two days there in winter and not seen a single other person. It is not a safe assumption.

Leaving your itinerary with someone is not failsafe. When my friend's buddy died he had left his route with his wife. He didn't come home so she called the police. The police drove by the trailhead and didn't see his car so they called her back and said that he must be on his way home. The reason they didn't see his car is because his car was white and it was snowing out. It delayed the S&R at least 12 hours.

The idea that the experiences of myself, my circle of friends, and other site members is mere anecdotal and that stories in a newspaper about someone you never met is somehow statistical is downright absurd. First hand knowledge is always better than what some newspaper said happened to a handful of people years ago.

Finally, "your determination has outlasted my desire to care" has probably been one of the best quotes in this entire thread.

- darren

As a relative "newbie" to winter hiking above treeline, I have to say, i have been following this thread closely. I have definitely learned a lot, so thank you to ALL the posters. Most importantly, I've learned to pick my hiking partners carefully, and make sure we all understand where we stand with regards to any kind of collective group responsibility to each individual.
I don't think I've seen any post covering any possible increased risk to others(rescuers) by hiking solo in winter....
One other thing.... when I was on top of a mountain, in winter, in whiteout conditions for the first time( with a group) it was the most electrifying,most "alive" moment I have ever felt. A moment I look forward experiencing again and again! Does that feeling ever go away, and if so, are the people hiking solo actually looking to increase their risk, so as to keep having that feeling? I'm sure there are as many answers to this as members of this board. For some, I'm sure its an "individual vs. NATURE" thing.... anyway, I wanted to add my two cents, and thank the posters for the breadth of views represented.

David Metsky said:

I solo hike, but rarely in winter. I'm not comfortable with the smaller margin of error. In particular, I've gotten hypothermic and had others in my group spot it. They got me to eat, drink, and put on layers when I wasn't thinking all that clearly. It's can be a subtle transition into hypothermia and without outside intervention hard to spot yourself.
-dave-

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"You also need to remember that no matter how good your "inner voice" is, it pales in comparison to having a hiking companion tell you that you might be having issues (as Arm needed to do on an easy winter trip where I just happened to take an unplanned swim and was slowly becoming hypothermic)"
--Sherpakroto

Hypothermia is a very real danger. It's sly and, as Dave says, subtle. The "inner voice" can freeze up. We've all heard the stories of people whose brains gets so sluggish that they end up taking off their clothes and freezing to death. Those aren't "Dear Abby" tales invented to scare people. They're real. In the Whites, I always remember the tragic case of the hiker who wanted to bag Eisenhower (I think it was Ike), went up in bad weather, and either couldn't find the Edmands Path down or was already too brain-numb and ended up wandering down the ravine from the col. Rescuers found him sitting with his feet in a brook. He had taken off his boots. In his pack were warm clothes he had not put on. He was dead.

waumbek, that is a CRAZY story!!! it totally gave me the chills!!!!!

yeah, if i go hypothermic ever, i hope someone is there to stop me from going for a swim in a half frozen brook.

and if i ever slip and fall and knock my head on some ice or a rock and black out, i really hope someone is there to take care of me. more times than not, i hike in very light clothes (i.e. shorts and a t shirt even in the winter) because i sweat so much going up, then i layer up at the top. if someone was with me at least someone could put all my winter gear on me till i wake up again, otherwise i'd probably freeze to death and never wake up..and it would happen FAST.

granted, i will probably go soloing in the winter someday, we all do things that could be safer, but THAT is not the argument. the argument is whether it is safer to be with someone than to be alone. i've done a lot of things solo that the majority of people would deem unsafe and i wouldn't take those things back, but at least i can admit, yeah...i'm glad i did it, it wasn't the safest thing, and it would have been a whole lot safer to do with someone else. if you are always waiting for someone else to do the things you want to do, sometimes you'll never get to do anything at all...so yes, i think going solo is great if you want to go solo..

here is a question, has anyone swayed their opinions from reading all these posts?

did anyone read this post in the beginning who thought that it was just as safe soloing now think its safer going in a group?

how about anyone who thought it was better to go in a group who now thinks soloing is just as safe?

do we ask questions and make points because we really want to learn more, or do we just ask to hear ourselves "talk" and to make ourselves heard?

and how hard is it to admit after making a point one way that maybe after rethinking it, you've changed your mind, and the "people on the other side" might have a point and be more right than wrong?

Just a thought.

Amazing Topic!

Thank you all - this is a very interesting read. At the "risk" of misunderstanding some, there has been every type of post-er from the humble "know your limits" types (thankfully in the majority here) to the not-so-humble "do everything with all your energy - regardless of risk" types posting their particular practices and suggestions.

I think it may be good to state that vftt (hopefully) does not endorse any or all of the suggestions offered - there is simply too much to risk - that winter hiking (particularly above treeline) is dangerous and potentially life-threatening - people die doing this sort of thing (and not just newbies).

To wit - since there are less-experienced hikers/climbers who google this topic and others like it and read these posts hoping to learn, i would say first and foremost to them DO NOT WINTER HIKE/CLIMB ALONE - IT IS DANGEROUS AND YOU CAN DIE. This warning may not be within my "authority" to speak for vftt as i am simply an ocassional poster here, but seems like sound advice to me.

Having said that, like many of the people here, i've been winter hiking/climbing for 20+ years. Though i didn't start off soloing. I started off with a few others who also loved camping in the snow and moving about the wintery world. To them i owe a tuition debt for what they so generously shared with me in those first few years.

However, for the past 18 years or so i have winter camped/climbed mostly solo. In fact, sometimes i have soloed technical terrain alone and without a rope (a little dry humor here!). These activities are not unusual in the world and a person does not have to be a super-alpinist to do them.

As a single person, my risk assumption had less affect if i was on the wrong side of the statistic. If i would have died or had to give up my job due to injury, there was no one who depended on me for anything (family and/or friends) except during the years i owned my own business and my employess depended on me. However, as a husband and dad, that affect is categorically and immediately different.

Thankfully, my wife is very understanding and trusting of my judgements and i assure her i won't "push it" (while in a group or not). I don't want to sound like a "P*R*O*F*E*S*S*I*O*N*A*L, but she has seen me leading backpacking/climbing trips and teaching outdoor skills classes long enough over the years to know (as she hopes and prays) i won't be overly foolish. I am very conservative in my solo wilderness activities. But, everytime i head out she always asks me not to push it and i respect that - it is a reasonable request.

I do this because i love the silence that comes from having the "whole place ALL to myself". I am not slowed or rushed by others. I am free to alter my plans within certain parameters - at my discretion - to go as fast or as slow as i want.

I have not been without accident either - i remember when my ACL snapped on a climb a few miles from anywhere. Not a fun walk out with my climbing gear, but i made it nonetheless. Or the fun of dehydration. Or hypothermia. Or falling through ice. Or semi-controlled falling down mountains. Survivability in many instances is simply a function of a persons state of mind - not "loosing it". Still, a broken femur is a broken femur and likely to be a life threatening injury (winter OR summer) if a person is alone (or with a group for that matter).

Winter hiking alone, above treeline is an activity to pursue with caution - regardless of skill/wisdom/fitness level. Every risk is heightened.

Be safe and live!

fm

There is evidence that people tend to act to keep the perceived risk constant. For instance, when seat belts were introduced, people felt safer so they drove faster. As people become more experienced and comfortable winter hiking, they frequently become more willing to solo. So it might be part of keeping the level of perceived risk constant or at least within some bound. (Some people, of course, never become comfortable hiking alone, which is ok too.)

I cannot speak for others, but when I solo (winter or summer), I tend to be more careful in a number of ways to compensate for the lack of a backup. I can also concentrate on my own needs without the distraction of anyone else's needs.

Doug

Jason Berard said:

One other thing.... when I was on top of a mountain, in winter, in whiteout conditions for the first time( with a group) it was the most electrifying,most "alive" moment I have ever felt. A moment I look forward experiencing again and again! Does that feeling ever go away, and if so, are the people hiking solo actually looking to increase their risk, so as to keep having that feeling?

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No, that feeling never goes away. If it does, it may mean you're in trouble because you've become blaise/immune to the dangers at hand. Part of that 'aliveness' is fear (at least for most of us) - don't loose it - it helps keep you alive and on your toes.

Having said that - you will find over time that you will become more confident in your skills and in that regard the 'rush' will diminish somewhat as you learn where the true edge of your capabilities lie. For example - the first time or two you get knocked down by the wind it can be scary as hell, but gradually you gain confidence as you learn how to deal with wind. However, there is an upper limit to which you can't navigate any longer (that varies a bit by individual) - eventually you will know that upper limit for you.

As for the second part of your question - no, I don't hike solo to enhance that feeling - can't speak for anyone else. OTH I do think you tend to be more aware of it when you're alone, simply because you don't have the distractions of companions.

Kevin Rooney said:

Having said that - you will find over time that you will become more confident in your skills and in that regard the 'rush' will diminish somewhat as you learn where the true edge of your capabilities lie...However, there is an upper limit to which you can't navigate any longer (that varies a bit by individual) - eventually you will know that upper limit for you.

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Some people are always pushing the envelope though, since they are always in search of that rush. I have met people like this, albeit very few, and they are at a state I won't engage in activities with them as they're way beyond anything I'd enjoy.

It's a state of "normalcy". People look at us and think we're insane for winter hiking, but many of us perceive this as "normal". I know my own state of winter hiking has progressed beyond what I used to think was the upper limits of what I'd do, but now I don't even think about it.

Lawn Sale said:

Some people are always pushing the envelope though, since they are always in search of that rush. I have met people like this, albeit very few, and they are at a state I won't engage in activities with them as they're way beyond anything I'd enjoy.

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This is consistent with the constant perceived risk theory--as one activity or difficulty level becomes familiar, the individual becomes complacent or bored and moves on to a new activity or difficulty level. Repeat until the indvidual stops, reaches his ultimate limit, or has an accident. (And not everyone slows down after the accident...)

It's a state of "normalcy". People look at us and think we're insane for winter hiking, but many of us perceive this as "normal". I know my own state of winter hiking has progressed beyond what I used to think was the upper limits of what I'd do, but now I don't even think about it.

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I think that many of us follow the same progression our own paces. Who is deemed "safe" (or timid) and who is deemed "dangerous" (or enthusiastic or in a hurry, etc) often depends upon the observer...

To me it just feels like having fun, using my skills, and occasionally learning new skills. I wouldn't say I get a rush--just enjoyment (and/or exhaustion... ). (FWIW, I view myself as currently being in a relatively conservative and safe zone. I also had the benefit of some good teachers early on.)

Doug

Carmel said:

and if i ever slip and fall and knock my head on some ice or a rock and black out, i really hope someone is there to take care of me.

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Exactly.

Carmel said:

here is a question, has anyone swayed their opinions from reading all these posts?

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Yup. Probably not in the direction intended. But it was a bit of a wake up call to look at something in a different context. And that may be something that makes me rethink how I approach my own decision making. In a good way.

Carmel said:

did anyone read this post in the beginning who thought that it was just as safe soloing now think its safer going in a group?

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No. I've always thought that there are certain places and trails that I didn't want to solo. This just confirms that train of thought.

Carmel said:

how about anyone who thought it was better to go in a group who now thinks soloing is just as safe?

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There's where I'm thinking differently. For all of the past discussion about group dynamics, I never really thought about it in terms of my own POV. As in, if I'm pushing to keep up with a group hiking on a designated date, would I be pushing my own personal envelope? Probably. And that wouldn't be a good decision for me or the group. Think of it this way, who really wants to volunteer to babysit me for hours in the alpine zone because I was tired, tripped, and meet the point of no return? I don't want to be that person. I don't want to put others in that position.

Carmel said:

do we ask questions and make points because we really want to learn more, or do we just ask to hear ourselves "talk" and to make ourselves heard? ?

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I don't know. But, I'd like to think that as we all "talk", we are heard. I'd like to think that everyone who makes a point might score a point with someone, somehow, no matter how contentious a thread becomes.

Carmel said:

and how hard is it to admit after making a point one way that maybe after rethinking it, you've changed your mind, and the "people on the other side" might have a point and be more right than wrong?

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That's a very good point, even though I'm still on the fence when it comes to winter soloing.

Carmel said:

Just a thought.

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And some might good ones!

dvbl said:

Do you do it? If so, do you feel selfish for doing it? Does it put a strain on the family? Do you ever get back to the car and say "that was stupid, I shouldn't have done that." Did you used to do it, but stopped for some reason? Etc.

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I havn't given myself the opportunity to do it but I would love to and will most likely do so. I'm thinking specifically of the Presidential Range.
I wouldn't feel selfish.
It wouldn't put a strain on my family.
I once got back to the car and said, "that was stupid" but what I did is out of the specific context of this thread.


I'm not a professional hiker/outdoorsman but I prepare my hikes and trips in a professional manner. I know what I'm doing but if I have a specific question I don't hesitate to consult with my colleagues. I always take death into consideration as a possible outcome and I take measures to reduce the probability of that occurring.
The reason for doing that is selfish. I want to hike again and again.

Waumbek said:

In the Whites, I always remember the tragic case of the hiker who wanted to bag Eisenhower (I think it was Ike), went up in bad weather, and either couldn't find the Edmands Path down or was already too brain-numb and ended up wandering down the ravine from the col. Rescuers found him sitting with his feet in a brook. He had taken off his boots. In his pack were warm clothes he had not put on. He was dead.

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Yes, it was Eisenhower. That was Nick, my friend Dave's old hiking partner that I wrote about earlier. I still remember getting the phone call. Dave, Roy, and I were going to head up to join the search when we got the other phone call saying that it was too late.

- darren

darren said:

That was Nick, my friend Dave's old hiking partner.
- darren

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My sympathies, Darren, to you and others who knew him. His death has always had a haunting effect on me, and I didn't know him. You honor his memory by doing your best in this thread and others to provide information, education, and personal experience about solo hiking. Only one person has written in to say he's changed his mind, probably in the other direction, but I'll bet a lot of people are thinking the issue through. That's all one can ask.

darren said:

Yes, it was Eisenhower. That was Nick, my friend Dave's old hiking partner that I wrote about earlier. I still remember getting the phone call. Dave, Roy, and I were going to head up to join the search when we got the other phone call saying that it was too late.

- darren

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Whenever I go by that spot on Eisenhower I think of that fellow.

Getting down that trail (Edmunds) in winter isn't as easy as it looks, even in clear weather. The upper part of that trail (last 1/2 mile or so below treeline) has been brushed out, so finding your way is easier in past couple of years. However, a few years ago, in late March, 3 of us went up Crawford to Pierce with the idea of heading over to Eisenhower and down Edmands and then walk the road back. We made it over to Eisenhower without much trouble, but for the life of us we couldn't find where the trail dropped back down into the tree - it wasn't broken out, and there were no footprints anywhere. Sure, we could have just dropped down into a drainage and we'd have come out on the road, but that's not a good plan A in late March with lots of snow and many spruce traps. Finally, around 3PM I suggested we just continue in a contour around Eisenhower and pick up Crawford and head back south. We still joke about it today as the 'Circumnavigation of Eisenhower', but the laughter is tinged with relief.

Sadly, I never got to meet Nick. Dave and Roy used to hike with him. The four of us were supposed to go for a hike together a few weeks before he died. We cancelled the hike due to bad weather, so I never got to meet him.

Two weeks after Nick's death, Dave and I were hiking on the same trail and I almost bought the farm from hypothermia. It was amazing that I got out and lived. Dave saved my life that day and he was amazed that I was able to do some of the stuff that I did despite being so hypothermic. We had to down climb an icy face and Dave had a hard time doing it and there was nothing wrong with him. I could barely speak and somehow I got down it. Weeks later Dave told me "man, I still have no idea how you did that." I agreed and said that it was all blurry and that I don't remember it very well. Dave then blurted it out "it was Nick. Nick was up there and he got you down. Someone was looking out for you." It freaked me out. Don't know what to make of it, and I still don't. That was like 10 years ago and it is still freaky.

I never met him but somehow I feel like I did.

- darren

Kevin Rooney said:

Getting down that trail (Edmunds) in winter isn't as easy as it looks, even in clear weather. The upper part of that trail (last 1/2 mile or so below treeline) has been brushed out, so finding your way is easier in past couple of years.

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Roger that. Dave and Roy and I went over it in our heads a dozen times. Our best guess is that Nick fell over the same lip that I almost fell over. If you are familiar with this trail, I'm talking about the section just before the "sidewalk" like section where you cross the little spring. After sliding down in to the ravine you would have a near impossible time trying to get back up through all the snow to the trail. At that point we figure he followed the ravine down and tried to follow the drainage out to the Mt. Clinton Rd. He was found dead of hypothermia still following the drainage about 1/4 mile from the Mt. Clinton Rd. He almost made it.

- darren

dvbl said:

I'm printing this one.

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mind if I ask why your printing my post?
This is a very interesting thread and Im impressed by alot of the post. Someone asked if climbers keep pushing the risk factor in order to keep the level of thrill (something to that extent) To me personally the risk is something Im really not at all interrested in, in fact the lower the risk the better. While the topic of risk factors can be debated as it is being all week long, to me, risk is simply a by product of the activity itself. I climb alot above treline simply because to me its the most beautifull place and most surreal place in the mountains in the winter. Im not leaving my car chasing risk. I will conceed that the climbing is certainally more exciting and that has alot to do with climbing above treeline as well. As with most endeavors the level of risk is controllable to a large extent. A long time vet on Washington has a signifigently less chance of an epic then 2 canadians who happened by pinkhams and decided to "bag" Washington. As far as the factors of risk we cant control as with all things in life why worry about these, I dont concern myself with what I cant control, would you avoid driving across Kansas to avoid a tornado? if you think about it, thats a risk many people take.
I guess my point is to evaulate yourself and or your group ie. the experience, the gear, the training. Only then can you properly assess the "risk" and determine if its acceptable.Ive climbed Washington alot, but I didnt mention that Ive also turned back on Washington alot, if the weather or conditions at the time Im ascending seem to raise the uncontrolable factors of my climb to a level that I feel the "risk" is to high, IM heading down without the slightest bit of remorse.

Kevin Rooney said:

Getting down that trail (Edmunds) in winter isn't as easy as it looks, even in clear weather....We made it over to Eisenhower without much trouble, but for the life of us we couldn't find where the trail dropped back down into the tree - it wasn't broken out, and there were no footprints anywhere.

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Part of the difficulty may be that the trails in that area were relocated a few years ago to get people away from the pond, of course using stone walls which can vanish in winter instead of cairns. Thus the old trail will look like the new one until it grows in.

Carmel said:

here is a question, has anyone swayed their opinions from reading all these posts?

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If that is the only goal of this note, it's probably a failure. If however people have learned some of the reasons people feel as they do, it may keep them from being so judgemental. And hopefully people who read some of these situations are less likely to have the same occur to them.

Consider Darren's long note. It may be even more valuable than a death report in Appalachia because people may be more likely to see themselves surviving rather than dying. And while it's easy for me to say that I wouldn't have wound up solo in that situation because no way would I have started a winter Presidential traverse in a snowstorm solo if I was feeling sick, nobody can deny that in that case a second person was a lifesaver.