Winter 46 Poll

With the lack of a decent snowpack in the Adirondack's, what's your opinion on bagging the W46?

I would imagine it would be harder to do the adk S46 compared to real snowy W46.

ADK trails have so much "stuff" that you have to step over or walk around it, slowing you down so much. In the Summer you have to negotiate all of these, in the winter with real snow you can just walk or slide your butt all over these obstacles.

So yeah, I'll boot up it but I'd rather hit the ADKs with snowshoes.

The flip side is I've done lots of these peaks in full winter conditions, but the calendar said they didn't 'count'

When did you go ?

Last week, we found:

• 1-2 Feet of Snow
• Spruce Traps!
• Temps in the single digits
• Windy blasts
• Icy spots

Does that sound like Winter to anyone else ?

Although in general it is much more difficult......I prefer a lot of snow, for many reasons. Sometimes it helps get over "stuff", but of course it brings traps and breaking trail into the equation. I don't like traps, but do like breaking trail and the routefinding aspect of virgin deep snow. Plus it just looks nice. Last week heading to Wallface I was pretty disappointed by the conditions. I hope we get snow!

So anyway, yeah I will always go. But in my opinion I prefer snow.

Tom Rankin said:

When did you go ?

Last week, we found:

• 1-2 Feet of Snow
• Spruce Traps!
• Temps in the single digits
• Windy blasts
• Icy spots

Does that sound like Winter to anyone else ?

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Yes indeed winter IS out there...at elevation... you need to find it!

Tahawus, (Upper Works) had about 4 to 6" of crusty stuff on Wednesday.

This poll came to be from conversation about bagging the W46 with no or little snow, basically do they count? Have fun with it!

Stealing peaks has always been a part of peakbagging.

The calendar says, "It's Winter," so they count, no matter how much snow is up there. Personally in my opinion, climbing up ice is much harder than climbing through snow. At least one can buttslide down snow but one buttsliding down ice!

cbcbd said:

I would imagine it would be harder to do the adk S46 compared to real snowy W46.

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Totally disagree with this statement. In the Winter one must wear more clothing, carry heavier packs, break through deep, unbroken snow, route find, endure the bitter cold, gale force winds, crawl up windy summits, fall through spruce traps, cross icy brooks, start on the trails in the wee hours of the morning, starting usually with flashlights ending with flashlights etc. etc.

In the Summer, one just puts one foot in front of the other, follow the herdpath or trail and eventually reaches the summit, with endurance and determination. In the Winter, one don't know if they will reach the summit, etc.

The Winter Forty Six is far harder than the Summer Forty Six, even with the rocks.

Just what I wanted to say, Skyclimber. Winter is way harder......

I like hiking all the time any time no matter what the conditions. The lists are a lot of fun too but I don't care too much about whether the hike was "hard enough" in order to count it. I've done winter hikes that were so easy! Ie. A beautiful hard packed and smooth trail over 5 feet of snow on a bluebird day. Then, I've done some real tough ones too on less than 6'' of snow trying to find a herd trail while soaking wet from snow on the trees, etc. etc. Winter hikes are all different (summer too for that matter) and by the time you've done nearly 50 mountains you've had some of everything and have a good feeling of accomplishment.

The distinction between winter an summer peak lists has probably lessened considerably compared to the days when: there was more snow, less hikers and more primitive gear. Back in the good old days when winter was colder the days were quite a bit shorter too. Did you know that?

Neil said:

Back in the good old days when winter was colder the days were quite a bit shorter too. Did you know that?

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Yup! Having a geology background, this was covered.....I can't wait for the polarity to shift as well

some info....not related to the post..my bad! .............

Astronomers can measure this very precisely now that they have atomic clocks to provide a non-celestial time standard for comparison. The length of the day is increasing by 0.0015 seconds every century, of which about 0.0007 seconds per century has to do with the tidal breaking of the Moon. As a result of this, the Moon's orbit must also increase so that the Moon is slowly getting farther and farther from the Earth by a few centimeters per year or so ( my estimate!). As this process continues, it is predicted that in billions of years the lunar month will increase to about 47 days from its current 27.3 days. But by that time, the Sun itself will have begun to evolve into a red giant, which will upset the Earth-Moon system somewhat; especially if they are both engulfed by the Sun's expanding atmosphere!"

Skyclimber said:

Totally disagree with this statement. In the Winter one must wear more clothing, carry heavier packs, break through deep, unbroken snow, route find, endure the bitter cold, gale force winds, crawl up windy summits, fall through spruce traps, cross icy brooks, start on the trails in the wee hours of the morning, starting usually with flashlights ending with flashlights etc. etc.

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I see your point... but as I read the above paragraph I just got more and more excited - I think you listed most of the reasons why I got hooked on winter hiking

My statement was incorrect, now I see that I'm just biased and getting out in the winter to me is "easier".... I miss my winter



edit: of course I still enjoy the sheer simplicity of hiking in the summer - much harder to forget something at home when packing

Bob makes a good point about hiking in winter conditions outside of calendar winter. Since there is so much weather data available, I wonder if there were criteria that could be set so that those climbs would count.

una_dogger said:

Bob makes a good point about hiking in winter conditions outside of calendar winter. Since there is so much weather data available, I wonder if there were criteria that could be set so that those climbs would count.

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I disagree with that, as there is about five months of Winter in the Mountains. Part of the challenge of Winter Climbing, is the fact that there is only three months out of the year, that one can work on the goal.

Achiveing the goal of completing any peak bagging list is just a personal achievement when you get down to it.

The achivement of 46W is your personal triumph. If you feel as if you have achived your 46W goal by hiking in the winter during less adverse conditions, (such as no snow, broken trails, summer access points) then I would say that you have succeded. After all, if you don't feel as if you have achieved your badge, then you can always redo under better/more challenging conditions.

There's always been a lot of variability in winter hiking. In summer, the difference that good and bad conditions may make is probably a 75% time increase. Winter conditions can easily have a 300% difference in time.

For example, consider you being the first one to climb Cascade after a storm. You'll be breaking trail, and route finding. It may take quite a few hours. Then consider this same trip on a well packed trail; mud covered areas are covered. Rocky sections are smoothed out, etc.

There would be no way that non-winter hikes could be considered winter. Imagine the logistics involved. If it WERE to be done, then some truely winter hikes could not be counted. (My winter climb of Big Slide was in a T-shirt on a sunny warm March day) It's a given that some winter hikes are easier than others, and that's part of the game. Some people take advantage of this and get an easy winter patch. Part of the game.

(*disclaimer: I haven't been up to the ADK this winter, but this seems to apply broadly to any winter peakbagging.)

Winter lists have always been based on the calendar, not the weather. Trying to 'not count' particular summits b/c the weather was 'too easy' that particular day would be a tremendously slippery slope (no pun intended). As others have said, many (all?) of us have bagged peaks in wintery weather when it wasn't officially winter, and likewise have bagged peaks on a mild, technically-still-winter March day.

On a somewhat tangential note, I am finding the conditions now to be more challenging than if it were a full-blown winter -- that is, mixed conditions with a lot of ice and rock is more challenging than the usual "snowshoe to treeline, switch to crampons" routine.

The only objective way to do a winter peak bag list is to use the calendar year. One of the big limitations that makes winter hiking harder is the lack of daylight. Put it this way, I am a 4 season 46er(generic that is, I can't call myself a summer 46er because I did Cascade and Porter only once, in the winter), but I have zero interest in doing the winter 46 because the more remote peaks(Allen, Santanonis, Sewards) I view as being too long and difficult. If you are on a broken trail, I think winter hiking is easier then summer given good weather (another caveate, winter storms are much more severe, and there are usually allot less sunny days to choose from). If you have to break trail, winter hiking is many times harder. I hike in the winter frequently but stick to the more popular trails that I know I can do in ~8 hours or less RT. At least in winter you generally do not have to worry about lightning. There are all sorts of trade offs.

As for this mild winter, I have been out allot and I say crampons have been more needed this year then in the past. I have even used my ice ax on Mansfield Maple Ridge trail. No snow means lots of ice. Once there is a good snow pack, I usually can leave my crampons in my pack and stick to snow shoes. Also, this constant 33 degree rain weather is way harder for me to stay warm in then 0F.

We could make only peaks done in the rain count for the generic 46ers ? Wet rock is slicker and this makes for the toughest summer conditions ?

My 2 cents.