Plastic double boot question.

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MadRiver

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For those of you who wear the plastic double boots like the Koflach’s I have a few questions? First, how tight do you lace the inner boot? Also, do you wear a sock liner? I wore my Koflach Dege’s for the first time on Saturday while snowshoeing the Smarts Brook Trail and was a little disappointed in the warmth level of my feet. Although my feet didn’t get cold, they were not as warm as I had expected given all the hype of plastic double boots. So I am wondering if I didn’t tie them tightly enough or the fact that I wore a liner under my expedition weight sock might have restricted blood flow to my feet. Just curious, how warm are your feet when you hike in plastic boots?
 
My feet are usually warm in my Koflach Degrees but I wear smartwool Expedition socks with a light hiker underneath. When actively hiking my feet are almost too warm with this combo, when not active I am just fine.
 
LT, I am now living here in NH. The next time you are in the neighborhood stop in and say hello.
 
Tying them tight will make your feet colder. I had that same problem. I couldn't figure out why my feet were cold so I got a thicker sock, which made my foot colder. I then got a thin sock and tied them loose and my feet were much warmer.

If you camp out, I suggest using vapor barrier socks. They keep your boots dry from the inside so you don't have to sleep with them at night.
 
I wear them snug but not tight, and I use a coolmax polyester liner with a wool/nylon blend outer. Feet are more than toasty. Wear them loose enough so they stay on your feet fine, but not so loose you start to cam out of them on the ascents (you can tell when your heel lifts). I also have the base of my foot just snug and the top a little tighter.
 
I had a pair of degrees and they were the coldest boot I have ever worn. I could not keep my feet warm in them no matter what I put on for socks or liners. I have a pair of old Koflach Paras and a newer pair of expeditions and my feet do not get cold in either of these. I wear the Paras mostly for day tripping and I wear the expd. boots for multi day trips.
 
When putting them on, make sure that you take the inner liner out and put that on first. Lace that up so it's comfortable, then put your foot and liner into the outer shell. You should be fine that way. I also only use a liner sock and Smartwool Expedition socks and I've been comfortable and warm.
 
Make sure they fit right to begin with!

Lots of good suggestions above about using liners,vapor barriers,and expedition weight socks. Although beware this will put most people in at least a half size to full size larger than their street shoe depending upon the shape of the boot. This relates to the comments of not lacing them to tight...the boots need enough space to begin with. The boot liner for warmth purposes should have somewhere between a 1/2 to full thumbnail of space at the end of your big toe. If you are strictly ice climbing you would probably go for a bit tighter/performance fit....this is why alot of ice climbers have gone back to high end leathers over plastic.
 
skiguy said:
If you are strictly ice climbing you would probably go for a bit tighter/performance fit....this is why alot of ice climbers have gone back to high end leathers over plastic.
Another reason might be flexibility in the upper. It is much easier to French Technique in leather. (FT requires ankle flexibility to the sides.)

Guess my 30yr old leather double boots are back in... :)

Doug
 
When using my plastics I find that I start out cold, then when I start really moving they warm up, then my feet start sweating, then I start getting chilly feet.

The inner bootie I try to keep nice and snug.

I used to use expedition weight socks, now I just use a lighter ski sock and use an insole (Sole) that is considerably thicker (and I'm guessing/hoping will help with insulation) than the stock one.

But I find that my foot warmth depends on the terrain I'm on and what motion I'm doing with my feet. Every once in a while I'll still have to do some leg swinging to get blood flowing everywhere in my feet.
 
I have many times hiked with others who are wearing plastics and they not only were uncomfortable but their feet were cold. I have yet to have cold feet in my insulated LaSportiva's - even hiking all day in subzero temps.
 
Too Warm?

When I worked in retail, we used to sell various styles of boots...Sorels amongst them. They made a couple of models that were insulated to -85 degrees F.

What happens is that your feet get too warm, then sweat. Moisture is your biggest problem in cold weather. The liner then gets soaked, and your feet get cold. The more you wiggle the toes, the worse it gets.

Just my two cents.
 
I haven't spent that much time in plastic boots, but haven't had problems with cold feet. I spent about a week in Koflach Viva Softs (this was a long time ago) with no problems, but it wasn't that cold either. I've wore a pair of Asolo AFS 101's snowshoeing, but again, not in bitter cold weather.

For really cold weather, I would suggest getting something like the Heat Factory insoles. They are basically Superfeet (made under a license) with a small pocket under the ball of the foot that holds a chemical heat pack. I put those in ski boots once and found out unless it's really cold, they were too hot. They last about 6-8 hours. You can also use the insoles without the pack in them-they have an insert to replace the heat pack or just leave it out.

Another idea would be to get thermoliners for the boots. Telemark boots use them, so do alpine boots. They are not cheap, but they are much lighter than a regular liner and supposedly warmer. The best thing is to have a good boot shop heat and mold them for you, although I have read a lot on doing it yourself. If you go to telemarktips.com, the forum there has a lot of threads on boot liners. Once in a while, you see Morrow snowboard liners on sale cheap-they might work. If you get used liners, I would try to get a pair that have only been cooked once or twice. I've seen them on eBay and TT in their buy/sell forum.
www.telemarktips.com

Here's Heat Factory's website.
http://www.heatfactory.com/
 
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TomD said:
For really cold weather, I would suggest getting something like the Heat Factory insoles. They are basically Superfeet (made under a license) with a small pocket under the ball of the foot that holds a chemical heat pack. I put those in ski boots once and found out unless it's really cold, they were too hot. They last about 6-8 hours. You can also use the insoles without the pack in them-they have an insert to replace the heat pack or just leave it out.
I have always avoided routine use heat packs in boots (or mittens). If one relies on them and they fail, it might place one at risk of frostbite. I prefer to use adequate insulation from the start. (I have fairly warm feet and hands which certainly help.)

Note too that feet and hands are heated by blood flow which requires that the central body be warm enough to spare the heat. The old bit about "if your feet are cold, put on a hat" is true. (They will warm up slowly when you put the hat on or increase your central body insulation--first your central body has to warm up before the excess heat can be shipped to your extremeties.)

Another idea would be to get thermoliners for the boots. Telemark boots use them, so do alpine boots.
Some older boots use felt liners, newer ones tend to use synthetic or synthetic foams. I understand the foams are warmer, but tend to pack out (compress) more over time.

I have little trouble keeping my feet warm in either my leather double mountaineering boots (felt inners) or my plastic Tele ski boots (synthetic inners, I think). One key aspect is to have them loose enough that circulation is not impared.

Doug
 
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Thermoliners now come stock in some Plastic Boots (ex.Vasque Ice 9000). They are lighter and warmer and moldable. They can be reheated IF they packout.Overall they will fit your feet WAY better. They can be bought as an after market product for most Mountaineering boots.
 
SmartWool Trekker or Mountaineers, no liner, just perfect. Wool moves moisture more efficiently than any other fiber. The only problem with the Mountaineer or Trekker is the construction type which is a looser fit than what you would get in the Adrenaline series, so they tend to slip down a bit and require some pulling up. If they made a heavyweight crew length Adrenaline it would be perfect. As such, I wear medium weight Adrenalines until we get weather like we're having now, and than go heavy (trek/mtnr).

Wool rules.
 
SherpaK ...good point. I have also gotten into the habit of taking off the shoes or boots that I wear on the drive up before I get to the trail head to let my feet air out and dry off. I was surprised how often my socks were already wet before I even put on the plastics.
 
spider solo said:
SherpaK ...good point. I have also gotten into the habit of taking off the shoes or boots that I wear on the drive up before I get to the trail head to let my feet air out and dry off. I was surprised how often my socks were already wet before I even put on the plastics.

What SK said and this tip are KEY in my opinion. When BC or resort skiing or winter hiking, I never put on the socks I plan to be active in until the trail head/ski lodge. This helps tremendously. So do warm boots to start with.

My plastics are a bit too big on me and sweating feet have always been my problem in them. I usually just wear one pair of thick socks and haven't had too much trouble staying warm. But I am a less experienced winter hiker. As for skiing in the BC, my feet are usually fine with one layer and thermofit liners in my ski boots. Oddly enough, at the resort in the same boots, I sometime resort to toe warmers. It's those pesky lifts...

bc
 
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