I almost got nailed by two skiers this weekend....

With all the hiking trails available, I'd find a different trail to hike if skiers can be a problem.............
It is winter the last time I checked.

I am glad no one was hurt, and I'm sure no one meant any harm.

I have to agree that if a trail is mixed use, then there is no argument here.

Its my hope that everyone who enjoys the outdoors, no matter what form that takes (hiking, skiing, hunting, whatever), does so responsibly and without lowering the quality (or endangering) the experience of others.

All I can say is, if the Mt Tecumseh hiking trail was called the Mt Tecumseh hiking/skiing trail, I guess I wouldn't have had so much of a beef. I will be calling Waterville Valley, and letting them know, because no matter how much a skier might hate this, one person can ruin it for all.

I'll write more later when I'm out of work......and I actually have more thoughts formulated.

grouseking

I Like hiking the long trail up to Mount Mansfield and the Chin in winter. The LT is very close to Stowe ski area and when the snow gets deep you will see many more skiers than hikers on the trail. The long trail is a hiking trail that sees alot of skier use in the winter. After many years on this trail I have fine tuned my senses. When I hear schuss, schuss, schuss I realize a skier is coming down the trail and I step to the side, behind a tree if possible. In the spring the skiers even throw in a bunch of wahoos! and cowabunghas! when the conditions are really great. You can hear them coming, just step aside instead of standing in the middle of the trail. I don't downhill ski but when I hear them coming I still give them the right of way.

I was curious about who would be held responsible if you had been injured? Could the skiers be held liable for your medical bills if you were injured?
I was hit on the ski hill this weekend. An out of control skier who couldn't turn slammed right into my back and knocked me down on my face, and tore my rotator cuff. Afterwards I thought I should have asked for her name and number so I could send her the doctor's bill. Not sure if anyone has ever tried that. (Lucky for me though I was wearing a helmet and a mouth guard!)

Frosty said:

...their complaints are met with one guy saying "don't be upset, it wasn't personal" ...

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That's not what I said. I said I'd bet it's not personal, so don't take it that way. I did not mean you shouldn't be upset, just not in a personal way, and by personal I mean "The skiers did not have it in for the hikers". And I suggested that the complainants contact Waterville Valley, rather then simply venting here where it will do nothing to improve the situation.

bikehikeskifish said:

I'd bet a lot of money that most skiers at Waterville Valley can't name the mountain (Tecumseh) let alone do they realize there may be hikers on some trail that is accessible from the lifts.

Their transgression is ignoring the boundary markers. I'd bet it's not personal, so don't take it that way. Again, I'd send a note to Waterville Valley, perhaps they can add a sign to the top of the hiking trail warning skiers of the additional dangers of skiing down the hiking trail.

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I also suggested what "rules" they had already broken -- skiing out of bounds -- which is grounds for revocation of their lift pass. They also were (presumably) skiing out of control, which goes against the skier's code of conduct.

I further suspect that they did not anticipate encountering human obstacles. Recall the OP said "2 took some serious spills". I.e., they did not only not know they were endangering hikers, they did not know they were endangering themselves.

Further discussion has led to the possibility that this was the Sosman WVAIA Nordic trail, which is (apparently) a ski trail. If this is true, then one shouldn't be surprised to see skiers on it (This was grouseking's own post: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15723&highlight=wvaia to which I refer.)

Finally, I am a three-sport user of trails. I bicycle (mostly on road, where I really wish I didn't have to share my nicely paved bicycle trail with those pesky SUV commuters tossing butts out the windows) sometimes on trails (like Livermore Road), I hike on trails (like Livermore Road), and I ski on trails (like Livermore Road). Unfortunately, there simply isn't enough space in the world to reserve each trail for a specific user group, and so we must all learn to play nicely together in the sandbox.

How you treat others on the trail will reflect on your user group, rather than on you personally -- rarely are you personally identified. I never flip off cars when they anger me (while road riding) because while they may not take it out on me, they may take it out on the next cyclist they encounter (and by proxy, that may be some poor bastard like me on his way home to his family.)

To be perfectly clear, I do not condone these actions, nor am I defending irresponsible skiers. I am a bit put off by one particular user group's perception that they have privileged use of a public resource, or the perceived implication that one group is irresponsible.

Tim

Many have weighed in on what appears to be a very controversial topic. I was under the assumption (assumptions are bad) that since I was on a narrow hiking trail and skiers have a perfectly good ski slope that I wouldn't have to worry about negligent people coming down the trail. If I hadn't been with another person, I might have been badly hurt, because I was fatigued at the time, and wasn't looking up. Another reason not to hike solo in winter i guess...but back to the topic.

To clear up where it happened....just above where there is the viewpoint of the Tripyramids. This was where I saw the first skier. It wasn't up on the Sosman trail...in fact that trail was unbroken. We saw up to 10-12 people ski down the hiking trail, some were being "safer" than others. The first two that came down were the most wild, for two reasons. One was because they completely took us by surprise and made us jump out of the way within a split second notice. Secondly, both of them crashed pretty hard after they hit a nice rock. I might not be a skier, but it appeared they were both out of control. Out of control skiers on hiking trails are not a good thing.

I was was extremely unaware that it was "ok" for a skier to ski down a busy hiking trail. I really liken that to a hiker walking out across a busy skiing trail. No common sense there.

If people want to ski the backcountry, why can't they go somewhere where the risk of hitting a hiker is extremely low, or better yet, nil! No matter how safe you are in letting people know if you're coming down the mountain on skis, its never totally safe because freak accidents can happen.

My whole gripe is that my safety and Matt's safety was put in danger because of people who for whatever reason, whether it be a blast or what not, decided to not ski the ski trail and use the hiking trail. It is one thing to put yourself at risk, but it is another to put others at risk by skiing down the hiking trail.

I think that Moosilauke is a very different story. While the Snapper trail is narrow in parts (I don't think its safe for skiers to take that), the Carriage Rd is plenty wide enough for both skiers and hikers alike. Its much wider than the tecumseh trail. This pic I took was as wide as it got.

Bottom line, I'm calling Waterville Valley to let them know of this extremely serious issue. They'll take it seriously because if someone gets injured badly enough, knowing this country there might be a lawsuit involved. I'm not lumping all skiers into one bad package. On the other hand, I do firmly believe that the hiking trails should be for hikers, and ski trails and glades should be for skiers. They're called hiking trails and ski trails for a reason. Sometimes there is too much of a safety issue to have the "let's all play in the same sandbox" mentality. You can play in the same sandbox, but sometimes it needs to be sectioned off a little for the well being of all.

grouseking

Edit: I started this thread for three reasons...one because I wanted to see others opinions on if it was really worth calling up Waterville Valley, two because I was pretty ticked off. Plus I wanted to hear if others have had the same experience as me.....

grouseking said:

All I can say is, if the Mt Tecumseh hiking trail was called the Mt Tecumseh hiking/skiing trail, I guess I wouldn't have had so much of a beef.

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I think that, unless otherwise specified, all trails in the Whites are multi-use. You can hike, bike, and ski on most of the trails in the Whites if you like. Most of those are excluded for practical reasons, but people make some odd choices. I've seen skiers and bikers on trails that I wouldn't have chosen, but for the most part people are allowed to make those choices. (Obvious exceptions are Wilderness Areas, Tuckerman Ravine, and designated ski trails.)

I will be calling Waterville Valley, and letting them know, because no matter how much a skier might hate this, one person can ruin it for all.

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Are you sure that WV doesn't allow skiers to go Out of Bounds? It's certainly commonplace at Wildcat and Cannon, which both have excellent backcountry terrain close by. I don't think it's against their policies, but I'm not sure about WV.

-dave-

I need to clarify something first. I don't have a problem with cross country skiing these trails because in general, it is much easier to see one coming, and usually you are on as flatter trail anyways, which increases the reaction time and decreases the risk.

David Metsky said:

I think that, unless otherwise specified, all trails in the Whites are multi-use. You can hike, bike, and ski on most of the trails in the Whites if you like. Most of those are excluded for practical reasons, but people make some odd choices. I've seen skiers and bikers on trails that I wouldn't have chosen, but for the most part people are allowed to make those choices. (Obvious exceptions are Wilderness Areas, Tuckerman Ravine, and designated ski trails.)

Are you sure that WV doesn't allow skiers to go Out of Bounds? It's certainly commonplace at Wildcat and Cannon, which both have excellent backcountry terrain close by. I don't think it's against their policies, but I'm not sure about WV.
-dave-

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They could be for all, but I have never heard of that before. There are special snowmobile trails, ski trails and hiking trails...and they're on that waterproof map that I love. I thought it was common sense for skiers to avoid hiking trails and for hikers to avoid skiing trails. For example, on Moosilauke, I probably wouldn't take the Carrigage Trail down because I wouldn't want to take any risk of being hit. Same thing with the Al Merril Ski Loop....I wouldn't even think of hiking on that in winter. Summer is a different story.

The fact that an entire "bible" has been made to highlight the hiking trails in the White Mtns led to my assumption that downhill skiers would not use the trails.

I don't have a problem with skiers going Out of bounds....but why on a hiking trail? I feel very strongly that if a ski trail parallels a hiking trail there should be signage stating that the hiking trail is off limits, because of the safety issues. To me it has more to do with safety than anything else, and seeing what can happen first hand really scared me. As everyone preaches on this site and while hiking.....safety first!

grouseking

As it is not illegal, it actually becomes a safetly threat when they use that section. Dave Metsky in no way can compare the Tecumseh Trail to the Carriage Road for width..It's not even close to the same thing. The Carriage Road is about 4 times the width. The other thing is that the entire trail isn't a common ski trail like Carriage, instead, there is a small section that is steep and winding that skiers are bombing down and catching people off guard. Its not at all common knowlege like other multi use trails. By the way..if there was another trail going up Tecumseh we would had taken it, besides hiking miles along Tripoli Road. It is the only option people have for hiking it in the winter besides (Tripoli). -Mattl

Going by my AMC map (never been on Tecumseh), I think a few little signs would go a long way toward avoiding problems.

I'd put one at the top of Sosman Trail, warning of hiker traffic. Same thing if there are places on the ski slopes to access the Tecumpseh Trail. I'd also put signs warning hikers of ski traffic at the trailheads.

Food for thought: some hikers have impaired hearing and others hike with headphones listening to music

Happy Trails

king tut said:

... Should we outlaw hiking on skiing trails if we are going to outlaw skiing on hiking trails?

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Of course.

I don't advocate this at all. Yet, if we decide it is necessary to do one then it probably is equally necessary to do the other. When children simply cannot exercise sufficient individual self control to play together civilly, then there is little choice but to separate them.

G.

Out of bounds policies at ski areas vary widely, but what is universal is their inability to enforce them. Many ski areas allow skiers to ski everything, whether it be a cut trail or not, that is within the boundary of the ski area. The boundary is generally defined by the outermost edge of the outermost trail(s). Anything beyond those boundaries is "closed." Skiers are not allowed to ski beyond those boundaries and risk losing their lift passes if they do so.

Now, that being said, it is impossible for any ski area to post a ski patroller at the "entrance" to every out of bounds access point to enforce the closed policy. Often you will see a sign, a rope, bamboo or a combination of all three. All of which are easily ignored. This sounds exactly what the skiers you encountered did. (Believe me, every ski area has "secret" out of bounds options. The trail up Tecumseh isn't very secret.)

Here's the real issue: I'm certain there are skiers that have the experience and ability to ski the trail you were on. (I've skied things as narrow as hiking trails.) The skiers you encountered did not. But, they could easily access this trail because of the lifts. Basically, they hadn't earned their stripes, so to speak, but still had access. Like I said, this "extreme" out of bounds option isn't very secret, so a couple of yahoos gave it a shot.

At Waterville Valley, the situation is a little different because the hiking trail is right there. But, I sincerely doubt that calling the ski area will get you very far. I'm sure they will apologize. I'm certain they are aware of the problem. But if it's out of bounds, it's not their responsiblity. It's the responsbility of the skiers. They are the ones at fault here. Waterville Valley can't control the actions of all of their guests.

All that being said, I'd be just as upset as you. I'm not defending the skiers in this case. They sound like idiots. But don't expect much satisfaction from Waterville Valley.

grouseking said:

All I can say is, if the Mt Tecumseh hiking trail was called the Mt Tecumseh hiking/skiing trail, I guess I wouldn't have had so much of a beef.

grouseking

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Is it really called the Mt Tecumseh hiking trail or is it the Mt Tecumseh trail?

Seems to me the real issue is the skiers being out of control. To me it doesn't make a difference whether the person is skiing, running, glissading, butt sliding,... Out of control is out of contol. Am I missing something?

I regularly ski the Gorge Brook and Snapper trails on Moosilauke. Since I helped build them I'm pretty sure that we had skiing in mind when they were laid out. In summer they are hiking trails and in winter the hikers and skiers share them. Carriage road gets hiker, skier, and snowmobile traffic. I've also skied the Asquam Ridge trail, and I've even seen skiers on Beaver Brook. All but the Carriage Road are pretty comparable to the Tecumseh trail.

I've also skied the Garfield trail, Zealand, Greeley Ponds, Shoal Pond, Valley Way, Randolph Path, and several other low trails in the northern Presies. I know people who've skied the Tripyramids, Osceolas, Isolation, Lafayette, Cabot, etc. There's at least one guy who has skied all the 4000'ers. The fact is that skiing on hiking trails is a long tradition in the Whites, and for the most part, people have gotten along.

This isn't to say that skiers don't have a responsibility to ski in control, be aware of hikers and skiers on the trails they share, and step out of the way where appropriate. Of course they do. Hikers have similar responsibilities, but it is the skiers who need to control their speed.

However, mandating that all trails are exclusively for hikers seems a very draconian measure. I can only think of one trail in the Whites currently where skiing down is not allowed; Tuckerman Ravine. That is due to the volume of traffic that goes up and down that trail during the spring skiing season in Tucks; plus there is a fine skiing trail built right next to it for that very reason. IMO, the Tecumseh trail doesn't get that much use, nor warrants that much protection.

The problem with that trail is the proximity to the ski area. I think that education, some signage, and a bit of enforcement of reckless skiing (ie, yanking lift tickets) would solve the problem. But it would be a huge mistake (again, IMO) to generalize from this incident to any blanket restrictions for skiing in the Whites.

-dave-

Mattl said:

It is the only option people have for hiking it in the winter besides (Tripoli).

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bushwhack?

Since you have stated that this is only your second winter 4K, you will no doubt see skiers on other “hiking” trails if you keep up this winter game. They are not always downhill skiers but they are skiers nonetheless. Remember, novices are surprised at a lot of things that more experienced hikers take for granted as common knowledge.

People have been skiing down the “hiking” trail on Tecumseh for years now. This is not the first year nor will it be the last. I’ve seen people hiking up the trail with skis (or snowboards) on their packs. I’ve never had an issue with sharing the trail with skiers. A key to that is to be alert to each other’s presence. It’s just something you have to get used to and be aware of. I’m mentally prepared to meet skiers on this trail every time I go. You need to as well.

As others have said, the issue here is the safety of both the skier and the hiker. Both need to be aware of each other’s possible presence. In this case, neither one was aware of that potentiality. Perhaps your surprise and fear exaggerated your sense of their lack of control. Perhaps their surprise at seeing you on the trail led them to be out of control. Perhaps some of both or some of neither.

Keep your head up, your ears open and your headphones in your pack. And be safe.

JohnL

grouseking and Mattl I'm sorry you had a bad experience. I don't think anyone here would argue that these skiers were not out of control and reckless therefore no doubt breaking the skier's responsibility code. I would be interested to hear WV's policy as to out of bounds skiing because as trailbiscuit mentioned that policy varies widely from ski area to ski area; some even advocate it. If WV does not allow it then these guys IMO were breaking another rule of the code.
One of the great things about the Whites is that it is a "Land of Many Uses". Also as a multiuser of the outdoors I am sincerely glad that there is a place where one can do this; although it comes with responsibilities. One of the biggest of those responsibilities is understanding the what, where, when and how your using this Land. When I first started hiking,before I started BC skiing I would not even have believed that I would be able to ski some of the trails I now ski on. This has only occured after many years of experience.
The trail you were on can as you did be accessed from outside the ski area. If some one had accessed that trail from the Trailhead, skinned up, and had skied down it in control, which is entirely possible would they still have upset you?
I think it is important here that not too many generalizations be made when it is possible that one may not entirely understand the whole picture. This thread and board has gone a long way to help others in their acquisition of knowledge. Being Outdoor Users I think we can all agree that the learning never ends.

(edited for typos)

You could clearly see where the skiers went out of bounds. When we were checkin' out the view of the Tripyramids you could see a big rope further up the slope. As we climbed, you could see where skiers had cut across thru the woods and onto the trail. So it wasn't like they didn't know what they were doing.

I guess if this is widely accepted, maybe I'll start hiking down the middle of ski trails. Better views that way....

JohnL said:

Keep your head up, your ears open and your headphones in your pack.
JohnL

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I will never, ever listen to music while on a hike. Nature is the song playing and I enjoy listnening to it. I was fatigued when the skier was coming down and Matt was ahead of me so he was able to warn me.

grouseking

grouseking said:

I guess if this is widely accepted, maybe I'll start hiking down the middle of ski trails. Better views that way....

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No offense, but you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder. You might be surpised to know that the vast majority of people out there aren't even farmiliar with the concept of winter hiking. Sorry you had a bad experience but, as I recall, someone specifically warned you about the fact that this trail is often used by snowboarders in the previous thread you started prior to taking this hike.

peace