Winter Hiking Etiquette

After considerable reflection on these “etiquette” issues, it seems to me that someone else raising a complaint about or “questioning” things I do is a signal that I ought to evaluate my own behavior.

By evaluate, I mean rather than shallowly considering it from the perspective of suiting my own convenience and satisfying pursuit of my own special pleasures, I should look at how my behavior affects the other guy’s convenience and pleasure-seeking, and perhaps safety, too. That’s the courtesy I hope the other guy will extend to me; I ought to be willing and ready to extend it myself.

This comes from a guy who has made his share of postholes. My bad. I have been more careful in recent years, since seeing the issue raised here on VFTT, and will continue to behave that way. My promise.

So, having confessed to being a wickedly offensive postholer once upon a time, and having boasted of my reformation, let me add a few words about glissading and butt-sliding on trails.

I don’t really have problems with the “damage” such activities might wreak on trail surface “texture.” But while ascending a narrow trail I do object to meeting some Yahoo careening at me in an all but uncontrolled sliding descent. Then the slider-glider’s behavior has a very direct (perhaps literal) impact on my enjoyment of the trail and my personal safety. That’s when I definitely will say “ouch!”

Some of this applies to non- snow and ice months, too.

G.

Rik said:

I agree with the first statement but not the second. What I meant was more that MSRs might be ok for a smaller person. Last week I followed the tracks of a certain "fast rabbit" wearing LA's up Bear Den and past Dial (BTW he was breaking trail and we still couldn't catch him!) and his trail was fine. After the big Valentines day storm three of us broke trail up Giant in MSRs. The next day we helped a group break the trail up Phelps. Those wearing bigger snowshoes seemed to have no advantage over those of us in MSRs. The following week I did an off-trail hike again in MSRs without much difference from those using bigger snowshoes. Just my experience. I've never been a "big guy".

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Rik, Ok, I'm glad they work that way for some people. I just doubt that I would be one of them. At about 215 lbs. with everything on, I'll stick with the Denali Ascents, and sometimes the tails as well.

...

I agree with others, that if you have your snowshoes with you use them as needed, but if you happened to leave them behind, then hike. There are times that the 3-1/2 to 4LB of extra weight on an already heavily laden pack is too much. It's a judgement call in NH. I understand the ADK's rules. I don't hike there.

I've made two winter trips where I've made a bad judgement call and left my snowshoes behind. Once on Cannon, where Coppermine gap or whatever it is called was filled with drifting snow. It was brief, but literally I sank above my hips and floundered. The rest of the trail up/down was hardpacked for the most part and uneventful on crampons.

A more recent experience on Monadnock's Pumpelly trail from Spellman to Cascade Link and down the same distance frustrated me as as well, as I had made a bad call to leave my 'shoes behind and convinced my hiking buddy to do the same. When we encountered post-holing territory we tried to widen our tracks by overlapping our foot prints. In retrospect, with all the ice/crust on top of different strada of snow, including powder & wet snow in different locations, snowshoes might have still yielded deep treads in places.

I agree with another poster about plastic boots - wearing snowshoes with them is more uncomfortable than wearing them on leather or other more flexible boot. But if I packed my snowshoes and conditions warrant, then I'll use them and put up with the discomfort.

Mike

Woe is us when a minority opinion states, generally, it's ok to unleash your bodily functions near / on a hiking trail for all to view. As if this is some kind of 'live-free-or-die' statement.

Never mind the part about post-holing or butt-sliding. What the #*&*! I want my fun and the hell with those who come after me....even if the next group happens to be injured or a litter-carry crew.

I suppose I am grateful that such self-centeredness is not so evident along the trails during the snowless times.

yellow snow pisses me off!

It would take like 2 seconds to cover it, one step and it's gone...

DougG said:

..... As if this is some kind of 'live-free-or-die' statement.

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Well that's what it is! How far do my rights go before they infringe on yours. Smoker vs non-smokers, perfume wearers vs the scent-free groups, peanut eaters, vs allergic people, those who snore/fart loudly vs those wanting quite....etc.

Then, of course, consideration comes into play from the other side. "I may have a RIGHT to piss you off, but I will not, because I'm a 'Nice Guy(tm)' ".

spider solo said:

... but if we are talking etiquette..how about us taking the effort to walk off trail when it's time to take a pee.

Peeing all over the trails to me is lack of etiquette to the max.

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A couple of weeks ago while hiking I stepped off the trail to take care of business. I promptly sunk in above my waist. Anticipating logistic problems I dug myself out, climbed back on the trail and let it fly. I did cover it up though.

Just a point of thought . . . what happens when instead of one or two hikers, EVERY hiker decides that the trail and the areas IMMEDIATELY adjacent is their bathroom. The occasional yellow and brown will cover the entire trail, no? What then? Also if you leave your "brown" in the middle of the trail, what happens when 2 inches of snow covers it and someone comes along and steps right IN it?

Personally, I think it is inconsiderate, but hey if that is your personality . . . no law against it, I suppose. I just know I appreciate it when the yellow is covered with a kick of snow but to each their own.

sli74

giggy said:

also taking a whizz or a dropping a stool are natural actions - no big deal. ya see some yellow snow, walk by it -
.

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Not to state the obvious but I guess I will.... There are basic hygiene issues with using the trails as a toilet, even in summer it is asked that people go off trail and away from water sources.

sli74 said:

Just a point of thought . . . what happens when instead of one or two hikers, EVERY hiker decides that the trail and the areas IMMEDIATELY adjacent is their bathroom. The occasional yellow and brown will cover the entire trail, no? What then? Also if you leave your "brown" in the middle of the trail, what happens when 2 inches of snow covers it and someone comes along and steps right IN it?

Personally, I think it is inconsiderate, but hey if that is your personality . . . no law against it, I suppose. I just know I appreciate it when the yellow is covered with a kick of snow but to each their own.

sli74

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Do that many of you regularly poop on the trail? I always "go" before leaving my house in the morning. I only go on a hike if it's an emergency or more than a day hike. I also try to "pack it out".

Even though at one point I did gripe a little about postholes, I do after reading this thread adhere to the opinion that there maybe to much complaining about it at this point. Giggy kind of got me back on track after reading his comments. Ive proboly been around alot longer them him, but he sounds old school and I think I still am. React to what you find in the woods regardless of how the said condition arrived in that condition and dont bitch about it.
One more point if I may? The AMC suggest how much snow? 2 inches? that cant be true, I wouldnt even dream of needing snoeshoes in 2 inches.
ok One more point, IM guilty sometimes I dont cover my yellow snow because Im lazy BUT sli seems nice and she made a reasonable point, Im lazy, yes, but I guess, I try to be somewhat of a gentleman ( although My standards for that are subjective) I WILL throw some snow over my p for the ladies staring right now.

kmorgan said:

Do that many of you regularly poop on the trail?

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absolutely not, never did and wouldn't think of it.

- I just don't care if someone else does. In fact, I saw a nice pile on the westide trail 2 years ago - I just laughed. prolly made a joke and moved on - whatever.....

nor do I care about postholes, glissade chutes, or yellow snow, etc.. no biggie. Maybe its me, I just don't see it as bad form.

Now that I've read the book "How to Shit in the Woods" I think I'll write a follow-up. "How to Shit (and Pee) in the Snow". Would a 6'' x 6'' x 6'' cathole do the trick? Much easier to dig them in the snow.

And what's this I hear about the brown glaciers of Denali?

giggy said:

absolutely not, never did and wouldn't think of it.

- I just don't care if someone else does. In fact, I saw a nice pile on the westide trail 2 years ago - I just laughed. prolly made a joke and moved on - whatever.....

nor do I care about postholes, glissade chutes, or yellow snow, etc.. no biggie. Maybe its me, I just don't see it as bad form.

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What happens when EVERYONE pees and poops on the trail? When there isn't somewhere to step around it?

sli74

sierra said:

ok One more point, IM guilty sometimes I dont cover my yellow snow because Im lazy BUT sli seems nice and she made a reasonable point, Im lazy, yes, but I guess, I try to be somewhat of a gentleman ( although My standards for that are subjective) I WILL throw some snow over my p for the ladies staring right now.

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Thanks sierra
I don't let it ruin my day, just can't understand . . . that's all.

BTW, postholes don't bug me much, I hate twisting my ankle in one, but that has only ever happened in moose postholes, not human ones and I doubt they are reading this thread.

As far as glissading, I don't see the harm . . . anytime there are people descending ahead of you, their boot ski tracks, snowshoe ski tracks, butt ski tracks, smooth the trail out, doesn't bother me much.

sli74

sli74 said:

What happens when EVERYONE pees and poops on the trail? When there isn't somewhere to step around it?

sli74

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Thats a lot of waste!

I will call gary moody in to break trail.

I don't think its a huge issue - thats all. You know me, I think like a rebel, against the grain, etc..

spider solo said:

Not to state the obvious but I guess I will.... There are basic hygiene issues with using the trails as a toilet, even in summer it is asked that people go off trail and away from water sources.

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I thought that Leave No Trace was now suggesting that you pee in the trail because it is already a disturbed area and you aren't adding more acid rain to plants. I still go to the side figuring the edge is partially disturbed.

sierra said:

One more point if I may? The AMC suggest how much snow? 2 inches? that cant be true, I wouldnt even dream of needing snoeshoes in 2 inches.

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Presumably they meant if you were sinking in 2 inches on a packed trail, not if you are sinking 3" in 3" of fluffy snow. I believe the author of that blurb is a member of VFTT and may comment personally.

RoySwkr said:

I thought that Leave No Trace was now suggesting that you pee in the trail because it is already a disturbed area and you aren't adding more acid rain to plants. I still go to the side figuring the edge is partially disturbed.

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Summer, not winter.

Peeing in the trail in winter, is marking territory. I pee on the way up, then on the way back, I see it, and think, "That's my mark there.... See that! I have the power to disgust other hikers.. not all, but some. It makes me feel big!"

So people pee & poop is gross, what about your pet? I don't want to step in any poop, regardless of source.

Some of this is going to be unavoidable as dogs will go behind their owners, is a dog owner expected to follow their pet & cover every yellow spot where fido has marked his territory? I don't expect that, does anyone? Does every dog owner pack out fido droppings?

I've been fortunate enough on day hikes not to have the need to pack anything out of my own.... TMI!

dvbl said:

Swiss-bobbing / glissading / butt-sliding: Do it, do it, do it. It's good clean fun. It's not hurting anyone. I believe it was Albee who said anywhere where one can have a nice slide down the trail is probably a spot where hikers should have traction devices anyway. It's harmless, inoffensive fun. Be a kid as much and as long as you can.

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this inspired a limerick/poem

when down from a mountain descending
precarious balance defending
it is often superior
to use one's posterior
insuring a happier ending!

written by banjolady august 2006 while sliding down south percy peak