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Thread: more New England mountain lion rumors

  1. #316
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    From Out west to Greenwich, CT via Lake George. The cat, seen in WI, gets by Great Lakes by heading south past CGO metropolis or up through Canada through the U.P. and over a bridge or across one of the narrow sections of the Lakes, across the Detroit River and into Canada and then cross the St. Lawrence? It knew to make a wide circle around congested CGO put ends up in Greenwich? Couldn't find any suitable territory between SD and Greenwich & yet was in the Lake George area? The ADK's were not as nice as Greenwich? Eastern, NY, PA? Maybe the cat was on it's way to the Cape or Maine for some Lobster, Newport for the summer?

    Maybe the buyer took him out for a walk, or the evidence was planted, an empty stomach, plently of domestic animals in the Greenwich area. Maybe they wanted him with claws because they were planning on setting him free in some type of game park or hunting preserve for the rich? The idea an animal which normally travels 100 miles or less travels 1500 miles on his own, past lots of suitable, desirable habitat, seems very unlikey when we have eccentric billionaire types who live in the Greenwich area. Maybe someone wanted to "one up" their Chimpaneze owning neighbor.

    Given a choice of a wild animal acting out of character or a human acting bizarre, I'll put my money on the human acting bizarre every time.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 12-15-2013 at 09:47 AM.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  2. #317
    Senior Member sardog1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    Given a choice of a wild animal acting out of character or a human acting bizarre, I'll put my money on the human acting bizarre every time.
    Your various theses require the active participation of an individual employed by the Forest Service in Colorado, some unnamed individuals in Minnesota and Wisconsin, a retired colonel from the NY Department of Environmental Conservation, his wife, an active duty DEC Environmental Conservation Officer, and at least one lab tech employed by DEC. That's a whole lotta bizarro to organize:

    "Four hairs were sent to Kristine Pilgrim at the US Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station on July 28, 2011 for DNA analysis to determine species and to determine if it was the same mountain lion that was killed in Milford Connecticut on June 11, 2011. Initial results of mitochondrial DNA analysis confirmed the hairs were from a cougar (mountain lion); subsequent DNA profiling, amplified eight loci, and confirmed that the hairs were from the same mountain lion that was killed in Connecticut, and that was previously identified through scat, hair and blood from one site in Minnesota and three sites in Wisconsin in late 2009 and early 2010. At eight loci the probability of two individuals with the same genetic profile of NY100498 (Lake George WPU Case # 100948), CT-PC-1 (Milford Connecticut roadkill), and WI-StCroix (hair and scat samples from Minnesota and Wisconsin December 2009/2010) matching by random chance is greater than 1 in 345,000."
    sardog1

    "Å! kjære Bymann gakk ei stjur og stiv,
    men kom her up og kjenn eit annat Liv!
    kom hit, kom hit, og ver ei daud og lat!
    kom kjenn, hot d'er, som heiter Svevn og Mat,
    og Drykk og Tørste og det heile, som
    er Liv og Helse i ein Hovedsum."

    -- Aasmund O. Vinje, "Til Fjells!"

  3. #318
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sardog1 View Post
    Your various theses require the active participation of an individual employed by the Forest Service in Colorado, some unnamed individuals in Minnesota and Wisconsin, a retired colonel from the NY Department of Environmental Conservation, his wife, an active duty DEC Environmental Conservation Officer, and at least one lab tech employed by DEC. That's a whole lotta bizarro to organize:

    "Four hairs were sent to Kristine Pilgrim at the US Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station on July 28, 2011 for DNA analysis to determine species and to determine if it was the same mountain lion that was killed in Milford Connecticut on June 11, 2011. Initial results of mitochondrial DNA analysis confirmed the hairs were from a cougar (mountain lion); subsequent DNA profiling, amplified eight loci, and confirmed that the hairs were from the same mountain lion that was killed in Connecticut, and that was previously identified through scat, hair and blood from one site in Minnesota and three sites in Wisconsin in late 2009 and early 2010. At eight loci the probability of two individuals with the same genetic profile of NY100498 (Lake George WPU Case # 100948), CT-PC-1 (Milford Connecticut roadkill), and WI-StCroix (hair and scat samples from Minnesota and Wisconsin December 2009/2010) matching by random chance is greater than 1 in 345,000."
    I'm not saying the officials did not find the evidence after the fact, merely that no one, not one person saw the animal alive during it's cross country traverse. How far from the road were the hairs & scat found? Could some one have been out walking his pet cougar the same way you'd stop every couple of hours with rover? You wouldn't stop and let the cat your transporting illegally out at the I-95 rest stop at noon but could you let him out on a dirt road in the ADK's or WI, etc around 2:00 AM? (People transporting other illegal cargo take precautions not to get caught. Would it be safe - healthy to keep the cougar sedated for the entire trip? Maybe drugged? How far from a gas station was the evidence found, you wouldn't want to pull into the Gas N' Go with an alert cougar & then have someone pull in next to you. Not sure a step van or small U-Haul would be sound proof.)

    There is ample habitat from SD to CT in places where the evidence was found without other cougars where the cat could have been the top four legged predator. What pushed the cat from those places to Greenwich, a place known for large estates, and uber wealthy folks one upping the Jones's on a grand scale. (Search for a mate & the cat only could only go East?)

    I'm not doubting the evidence or those who analyzed it, just how the cat got from point a to point b. I find it hard to believe the cat made the trip unassisted & too coincidental that a place known for excesses was the first and last place it was seen alive. I am assuming the dates are those when the evidence was found.

    Two years making it's way across the country,never seen crossing all types of highways and rivers & deciding a very busy congested area was a good place to sneak though to a better home, it avoided many busy cities and ended up in a suburb of the biggest city?

    or

    transported & keep in captivity, one day escaping it's estate home & not being able to cross the first busy highway safely.

    FWIW, I'm not watching any of the Sasquatch shows waiting for them to find one in some of the places they've looked either. Cougars someday may make it back east, the cats will have to compete with the current coyote which in some cases is a wolf-coyote hybrid. Bears haven't been very good at living amongst people in suburbia, especially in CT when the rare one appears in neighborhoods. Cats are better at being unseen but that much distance and time unseen seems too unlikely for me.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 12-18-2013 at 09:41 PM.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  4. #319
    Senior Member sardog1's Avatar
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    Actually, this cat was observed several times on its trek (but amazingly, not once leaping out of the back of a pickup):

    "At the time, wildlife officials from Minnesota and Wisconsin worked together to collect biological samples to be tested by the U.S. Forest Service's Wildlife Genetics Laboratory at the Rocky Mountain Research Station in Missoula, Mont. That they were able to match so many local sightings to the same animal was considered a testament to the power of DNA forensics, said Mike Schwartz, the lab's conservation genetics team leader.

    "'It was remarkable that we kept getting the same match because that hadn't really happened before," Schwartz said. 'We thought that was the end of the story.'

    "But the cat kept roaming.

    "Tracks were found near Cable, Wis., a few miles from the Birkebeiner cross country ski trail Feb. 27, 2010, the day of the race. Trail cameras from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan suggest it headed north of Lake Michigan, but no Midwest sightings are known after that.

    "Wydeven speculated it might have crossed into Canada at Sault Ste. Marie, traveled east across Ontario and crossed the St. Lawrence River back into the United States by island hopping the river's Thousand Islands area."

    Cougar's prowl from Midwest to Connecticut astonishes scientists

    It's worth remembering that this is a species bearing among its many monikers "ghost cat". It makes its living by stealth. Many hunters out West have been shocked to discover one very nearby, and the hunters who pursue them regularly often are surprised by its ability to stay concealed.
    sardog1

    "Å! kjære Bymann gakk ei stjur og stiv,
    men kom her up og kjenn eit annat Liv!
    kom hit, kom hit, og ver ei daud og lat!
    kom kjenn, hot d'er, som heiter Svevn og Mat,
    og Drykk og Tørste og det heile, som
    er Liv og Helse i ein Hovedsum."

    -- Aasmund O. Vinje, "Til Fjells!"

  5. #320
    Senior Member jniehof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sardog1 View Post
    It's worth remembering that this is a species bearing among its many monikers "ghost cat". It makes its living by stealth. Many hunters out West have been shocked to discover one very nearby, and the hunters who pursue them regularly often are surprised by its ability to stay concealed.
    Data point: the only reason we knew we had one in town was that somebody has a little watering pond set up in their backyard with a motion-triggered camera. Whereas the bear that wandered in made its presence very well known, and the deer and coyote are pretty darn visible, too. (Tuesday morning, on my way to work, I ran across a crosswalk, turned along the street, and kept going, wondering why all the traffic was suddenly stopping. Just after I turned, a buck had come down behind my back and was calmly using the crosswalk.)

  6. #321
    Senior Member hikerfast's Avatar
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    i guess what everyone is waiting for is a picture or video of one up in northern new england where people are hiking and hoping to see them. this is my favorite thread. im glad things dont get too catty
    why are there people like Frank??

  7. #322
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerfast View Post
    i guess what everyone is waiting for is a picture or video of one up in northern new england where people are hiking and hoping to see them. this is my favorite thread. im glad things dont get too catty
    It isn't quite hiking, but I remember a scene from a PBS program dealing with mountain lions:

    It was a shot of a mountain lion hiding in the shrubbery in front of a building in Jasper (Canada). People were walking on a nearby sidewalk completely oblivious to the cat in the bushes...

    IIRC, the topic was how some animals were living in close proximity to people, often with minimal awareness on our part.

    Doug

  8. #323
    Senior Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerfast View Post
    i guess what everyone is waiting for is a picture or video of one up in northern new england where people are hiking and hoping to see them. this is my favorite thread. im glad things dont get too catty
    I, too, am thrilled to see any large mammal in the wild, it is part of my objective on many hikes, but two that I'd be content not to encounter, at least on anything but my own terms, are the grizzly and the mountain lion. Both view humans as prospective prey, the latter, in my mind, more dangerous because their attack is quicker and likely more of a surprise leaving less time to react. ... lends a whole new perspective on "leave no trace."

  9. #324
    Senior Member hikerfast's Avatar
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    i have to admit id rather see a pic of a mountain lion than see one when I am hiking alone. People have been killed by them out west. If I was in a group and I got to be the one taking the picture and meeting the president..well that's fine with me.
    why are there people like Frank??

  10. #325
    Senior Member funkyfreddy's Avatar
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    Ok, I now live in upstate NY right by the Canadian Border. Apparently cameras on the border have caught mountain lions in Flat Rock Gulf and Champlain NY. I was told this by someone who works for the US Government. Lots of open land for them to wander as well as food up here....

  11. #326
    Member StaggerLee21's Avatar
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    I find this all very funny because my friends and I have all seen cats up north for years now. They first started being seen in the Carter Range and wildcat wilderness by AMC staff on solo hikes in winter. If you want to see one, all you have to do is go to the Sandwich range often during the off-season. There was so many last march that another hiker and I actually saw a black one(not rare) at over 3000 feet on Blueberry ledge trail and it was enormous. There were clean prints all over the brook near the homes at the trailhead and they were from two different cats. I actually have at least one photo.One was easily over 90 pounds, and the other no less than 70. Trust me. there is no mistaking a cat or the prints when you see them,lol. They are terrifying and ultra-stealth, and I'm here to say solo hikers need to be alert. This whole debate thing should have been over years ago. Nothing leaves claws like that or leaves a stretchy leather snowshoe print with 3 inch talons.....and nothing is as terrifying as when you see one and see how differently it views you than a bear.....you can also go see them on success pond road or the far north. Not only is there tons of hem, but they are also getting much heavier than they do elsewhere. Ive seen 3 allready and tons of prints. As far as I'm concerned, it's only a matter of time before the charade is up. Ive spoken with rangers and others about this, including hunters and peopel from out west. My understanding is that in Maine in particular everyone knows they are back, as well as parts of NH and that public officials don't want to confirm sitings because the endangered species or protected species acts cause huge zoning and building conflicts and make enemies......no one wants to be labeled a public loon either. we live in America, where an insecure public likes to crucify people publicly, play officially sanctioned blame games instead of mount collaborative solutions.....there's plenty of game wardens and officials who allready know they are around. No one is going to speak up though, until a child is killed in front of 20 people at a campground outskirts.Saying they arent here is no different than saying the earth is still flat....and saying they are is like saying you can make nuclear power in 1800....denial, violent opposition, and acceptance; the 3 stages of human growth.
    As a certified arborist and naturalist, i can tell you that Connecticut and western Massachusetts are in a unique forest zone that is extremely verdant,largely mature and diverse and provides an exceptional habitat for them and other animals. this will all come out of the wash totally soon.
    Last edited by StaggerLee21; 01-28-2014 at 08:46 PM. Reason: addressing additoinal input

  12. #327
    Senior Member hikingmaineac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee21 View Post
    I find this all very funny because my friends and I have all seen cats up north for years now. They first started being seen in the Carter Range and wildcat wilderness by AMC staff on solo hikes in winter. If you want to see one, all you have to do is go to the Sandwich range often during the off-season. There was so many last march that another hiker and I actually saw a black one(not rare) at over 3000 feet on Blueberry ledge trail and it was enormous. There were clean prints all over the brook near the homes at the trailhead and they were from two different cats. I actually have at least one photo.One was easily over 90 pounds, and the other no less than 70. Trust me. there is no mistaking a cat or the prints when you see them,lol. They are terrifying and ultra-stealth, and I'm here to say solo hikers need to be alert. This whole debate thing should have been over years ago. Nothing leaves claws like that or leaves a stretchy leather snowshoe print with 3 inch talons.....and nothing is as terrifying as when you see one and see how differently it views you than a bear.....you can also go see them on success pond road or the far north. Not only is there tons of hem, but they are also getting much heavier than they do elsewhere. Ive seen 3 allready and tons of prints. As far as I'm concerned, it's only a matter of time before the charade is up. Ive spoken with rangers and others about this, including hunters and peopel from out west. My understanding is that in Maine in particular everyone knows they are back, as well as parts of NH and that public officials don't want to confirm sitings because the endangered species or protected species acts cause huge zoning and building conflicts and make enemies......no one wants to be labeled a public loon either. we live in America, where an insecure public likes to crucify people publicly, play officially sanctioned blame games instead of mount collaborative solutions.....there's plenty of game wardens and officials who allready know they are around. No one is going to speak up though, until a child is killed in front of 20 people at a campground outskirts.Saying they arent here is no different than saying the earth is still flat....and saying they are is like saying you can make nuclear power in 1800....denial, violent opposition, and acceptance; the 3 stages of human growth.
    As a certified arborist and naturalist, i can tell you that Connecticut and western Massachusetts are in a unique forest zone that is extremely verdant,largely mature and diverse and provides an exceptional habitat for them and other animals. this will all come out of the wash totally soon.
    Best.First Post.Ever on the Most.Viewed Thread.Ever

    P.S.
    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee21 View Post
    I actually have at least one photo.
    I'm sure we'd all love to see that shot!
    Last edited by hikingmaineac; 01-28-2014 at 11:09 PM.

  13. #328
    Member StaggerLee21's Avatar
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    one of the melted ones.there were perfect crystal clear ones less than 100 feet away

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Theres a melted one. next time I will make sure to get some of the good fresh print for you. they were only about a 150 feet behind these.

  14. #329
    Senior Member Red Oak's Avatar
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    P.S. I'm sure we'd all love to see that shot![/QUOTE] All I could think of was this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA [note; stagger beat me to it..]
    ne67/n.e.h.h.31/100w

  15. #330
    Member StaggerLee21's Avatar
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    that print is easily 4.5 inches across adn the big and clean ones from the bigger cat were easily 5 inches with splayed toes to float on the snow. each pad had 3 inch claws in front of it. I was a northener, and I lived right nearby in Tamworth and had bears eating my raspberries all the time......so please, no one try to tell me I saw bear tracks.

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