Mount Adams Firetower\Bear Canisters

Just my 2 cents about the bear canister issue. I have always hung my food, and have been anal/hitleristic about maintaining a clean campsite, going as far as cleaning up after the morons who were there before me many times.

Staying at the leanto without a floor at flowed lands last summer, my hiking companions and I were entertained by a bear demolishing an improperly hung bear bag in the wee small hours of the morning. Our food was hung next to the bag that the bear got, but he couldn't get ours. We also had food in one canister on the ground which he didn't even touch.

I like canisters. I think they're a very effective way of keeping your food and denying the bears any treats. However, I like the option of not carrying a canister because they are bulky and heavy, and I know how to hang a bag that a bear can't get (using the cables of course...) I dont' want to be told that I need to carry a canister because there are too many people who are too dense to know how to keep their food safe.

I don't like the idea of the lockers for two reasons. One, they are a non-conforming structure as previously stated. Two, they would enable the overpacking people who I have come to know as the worst kind of slob (many of my friends are like this, hence my propensity toward fewer hiking companions...) to carry all manner of crap with them and just toss it in the box. It just seems like a bad idea all around.

Just my thoughts.

Josh

This thread has been offering very thoughtful comments on canisters. The common theme seems to be that "I know how to do it right", whether it's regarding hanging bags or LNT or any other solution short of requiring canisters.

But look at it this way. Almost everyone who posts here seems to be a knowledgeable and experienced outdoors person. Many or most of us know what we are doing and how to prevent bear raids on OUR food or campsite. And most of us resent regulations on people such as ourselves.

Unfortunately, the majority of users of the High Peaks region are not so knowledgeable and capable. This forces us to examine solutions on behalf of these........people. Until we can educate these people en masse, or devise a better solution to the bear problem (many would say "people problem"), canisters seem to be the most sensible solution at this time. I, too, get tired of cleaning up other people's sites of their trash. (I just cleaned the Bradley Pond LT last 2 weeks ago and took out apx 5 pounds of crap!) But I haven't been able to change anyone's behavior. I hate to say it but we seem to be forced to dumb down the solution to benefit the greater good. Short of giving a bag-hanging test to those entering the region, the canister requirement should be tried so that it can be studied (I can hear Grumpy's groan now, hee hee!) for it's effectiveness in solving the issue.

Good news about the firetower.

Concerning the bears.... I SOOOOOO want to vent, but I'll spare you all. Like DeadFred eluded to, I've never lost a bear bag... but it was almost humorous seeing the "pinatas" hung at Uphill lean-to last summer (c'mon people, at least make the bears work for it ). The problem I have with canisters is their bulk... during the "bear" season, I often bivy, which allows me to fit all my necessities within a day pack. That won't be happening if I have to carry a canister.

To be honest, the people who lose their food to the bears and the bears that take advantage of such offerings don't concern me. I don't interact significantly with either... they might as well be in a parallel dimension. Let 'em play out their game... it's amuzing.

Although carrying a canister is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things, it's just one more regulation I have to, and will, obey. Just like other backcountry regulations, this a regulation for all meant to curb the behavior of the inconsiderate/ignorant few. Those of you who hike with well-behaved dogs (a vast majority) must hike with a leash for the inconsiderate few who let their obnoxious canines run and jump on anything/anyone. We must all fill out backcountry permits due to the inconsiderate few who hike/camp with too large a group. We need summit stewards to make sure the inconsiderate/ignorant few don't stomp on alpine vegetation. Alain's blood boils due to the inconsiderate few who bareboot in winter. How many others can we think of.... tearing down birch trees to make camp fires, leaving garbage in the woods, deficating near streams or campsites, and now feeding the bears. Regulations won't stop the inconsiderate... and ignorance is best combated with education. Oh, sorry... I vented.

Hey rico,

VENT AWAY! You make some great analogies.

I esp like the one re: dogs. My dog doesn't need a leash (REALLY...she's a working dog and smarter than most people I know) but I'm forced to keep her on one because of all the bad dog owners and dogs out there that have created a problem.

I just like using a cansiter for the reasons that funky freddy lists. But it makes going light and fast harder with a canister. I find that having a buddy to carry it for you works best!

Bear lockers, but where

So, where would they be installed? At every lean-to and designated campsite ($$$$) or only at Marcy Dam, Lake Colden, and Johns Brook area? Do you make the assumption that people who camp outside of these areas know what they are doing? Wait, maybe add Flowed lands and maybe split rock. Oh yeah, and the Orebed and Wolfjaw lean-tos.

They're expensive, and expensive to install. It's not like you can drive a truck there and drop it off. Helicopter drops? to multiple locations? Expensive. Getting humans to haul them in on their backs?

Then you have the expense of having someone go in, set them up, etc.

So where does this money come from? How about charging for camping permits? After all, they are providing an 'improved campsite'

On the other hand, imposing a rule requiring canisters costs very little.

Consider this. Put it to a vote to the general population of the state. Would the average man on the street want to pay to make YOUR pack lighter?

The news regarding the firetower is great indeed. Nice work sir, and I appreciate you making this information available to us on VFTT.

My take is that it is unrealistic for the DEC to put the bear cannister rule into effect for 2004. I don't know where to buy one, or how much they cost.

I think the DEC should target this rule implementation for 2005 at the earliest.

Here is one link for bear canisters.

Bear Canisters

To the point about weight and size challenges...I sure wish they would manufacture a half-size model for solo hikers that would still hold 2-5 days worth of food but be smaller and lighter. Any canister manufacturers listening?

Oh yeah...this link also has a carrying case for sale for those who have asked about ease of transport. I have found that strapping mine to the outside bottom of a daypack is not that problematic. It's even easier with a larger pack. Otherwise, try this carrier they sell specifically for the canisters.

[Neil, I hope I'm not co-opting your thread TOO much with my various posts on this issue. I just find the issue very interesting and want to provide information regarding the options. With good intentions, Fred.)

>>Yesterday, the board of directors of the Adirondack Mountain Club unanimously passed a resolution<<

neal... is this the final word, or just the word from one club? aren't there others that have to change thier opinion on the mt. adams tower's fate also (like APA, etc.)?

When and where do we sign up to do some trail work on Adams? It was my first real mountqain and is only about a few miles away from my familys cabin so I have no excuse not to help.

I haven't seen a map of the acquisition for a while so I can't remember the borders of the territory; will some new trails or connections to old trails be opened up?

As for bear canisters I can't imagine fitting one into my Ghost or even hanging one on the outside. I have always done my best to keep odor down using ziplocks for food and trash awith multiple stuff sacks and prudent hanging. Avoiding the big campsites is another option but not open to everyone. Could one of the ursacks do the same job as a hard canister?

trash

Great news about the fire tower.

But regarding the people & bear problem: If some kind of food locker is installed in camping areas, who will haul out all the trash that will be left in them by the same slobs who contribute so much to the problem now? And I certainly wouldn't want to sleep in a lean-to that has a locker full of "bait" attached to it. Food should be stored away from lean-tos and tents regardless of what you put it into. Do you not put your food canisters well away from your tents when you camp? I used "bear canisters" on my last 3 or 4 trips before Winter came along, and I will continue to do that. The canister fits nicely inside my old, and not that big backpack. If there is any room left after my food goes in, I stuff it with other things to use up the space. I don't think, however, that I want a regulation that MANDATES the use of canisters. How about a "no smoking" rule in the High Peaks? Just kidding...

Oh yeah... Food canisters are useful in Winter too. A Pine Marten made off with some of my rations just 3 weeks ago. -ALG

As Fred said, Kudos to you all for this sensible and thoughtful position on this piece of Adirondack history. It's on my list to visit and I'm so glad the tower will be there. Thanks for posting, don't be a stranger.

What bear?

Some notes on bear canisters

Bear canisters have a minimum size below which they become ineffective, as a bear can then pick them up in its jaws and walk away with it. The weight of the canister is limited, as it must be over this certain size, and must be able to withstand the attentions of what could be a 600 lb. bruin.

I have a Bearikade Weekender:
<http://wild-ideas.net/index2.html>
It fits in my Mountainsmith Ghost, weighs 1 Lb., 12 oz. and has survive at least two bear attacks in the Adirondack High Peaks with nary a scratch. It is the lightest--and most expensive--bear canister commercially available. Because of improvements made to satisfy national park requirements out west, the current canister has gained 3 oz.,

porky pine

Re: Bear lockers, but where

Pete_Hickey said:

So, where would they be installed? At every lean-to and designated campsite ($$$$) or only at Marcy Dam, Lake Colden, and Johns Brook area? Do you make the assumption that people who camp outside of these areas know what they are doing? Wait, maybe add Flowed lands and maybe split rock. Oh yeah, and the Orebed and Wolfjaw lean-tos.

Click to expand...

I would start with the Marcy/Flowed/Colden area as a test- I wondered if bear lockers would wind up being trash cans even as I wrote my last post. If it works then continue the installation as needed.

As for the money issue, the current bear problem has to be costing something- two bears were destroyed last year if I recall correctly, there has to be some cost associated with that. Granted, not as much as a full fledged bear locker program. It's likely that the bear problem will become more expensive on the DEC's part as it worsens.

Put as lighten a pack vs. instituting a regulation about everyone would choose the reg. But, that's not the only way to frame it: very effective measure vs. somewhat ineffective measure would bring a different choice.

I would have no problem with parking or permit fees if the money went back to the area or the DEC. The Whites seem to be benefiting from such a program. However, I was not taking funding into account when stating my opinion, I was choosing what I felt would be the most effective.

Pete: good point. I'm a QA guy, long on seeing problems, short on solutions.

Bearikade: $195? I can't afford that. A can bearly afford to get to the mountains. I am thinking of going with the Bear Vault and only have mild concerns with the closure system used. In any event, I know I'll need one before summer comes around.

Bear Canisters/Mount Adams

A little more information on the proposal for mandatory bear canister use in the eastern High Peaks.

DEC expects to go forward with regulations to mandate the use bear canisters in the eastern High Peaks. They have decided not to try and promulgate emergency regulations for the summer season of 2004.

They hope to conduct an educational process this summer and strongly encourage the use of bear canisters this year, complete the regulation adoption process this fall so as to be in a position to enforce a mandatory bear canister use provision in the summer of 2005.

Some in this forum have asked the position of some of the other players in the political process on the Mount Adams fire tower issue. ADK and the Resident's Committee to Preserve the Adirondacks have adopted positions supporting the retention of the tower. The Adirondack Council is opposed to retention of the tower. I am unsure of the current position of the Association for Protection of the Adirondacks. The Adirondack Park Agency has not yet addressed the issue. My hunch is that the Department of Environmental Conservation will be supportive but they have not taken an "official" position yet.

In response to Grumpy's question on ADK's stance on other fire towers in Wilderness, Primitive or Canoe areas - In accordance with the Board of Director's policy supporting the provisions of the Adirondack Park State Land Master Plan, ADK supports the removal of fire towers as non-conforming structures in Wilderness, Canoe and Primitive areas. The only fire towers remaining in these classifications, St. Regis Mountain and Hurricane are located on mountains which have good views without ascending the tower. I hope this answers the question.

Neil Woodworth

Bear canisters

I'm glad to hear (read) that DEC decided not to promulgate emergency bear canister regulations for the 2004 summer season. My concern is the wording of any such regulation.

I can't imagine how the regulation would be worded to avoid vagueness. I assume that the regulation will target overnight campers, but what about day hikers - do they need to carry bear canisters? How about the elderly couple strolling to Marcy Dam to enjoy the views and a picnic lunch - do they need to carry a bear canister?

And then there are enforcement issues ....

Don't celebrate too soon . . .

Actually, a regulation may already be in place to address the bear problem. NY State Part 190.13 regulations say, in part, that no person in Adirondack wilderness areas shall

“. . . fail to take reasonable steps to keep food, food containers, and garbage from bears, such as the use of bear proof canisters or cable or rope hanging systems . . .”

Being a stick-in-the-mud type, I’d argue that if a bear gets at your stored food you failed to take “reasonable steps” to keep it from bears, and that you could/should be cited for violating this regulation. But then, I'm not one of the DEC honchos or rangers, either.

Since the wording of the reg does seem to imply camp food storage, you might be off the hook if a bear decides to grab a Spam sandwich out of your daypack or hand as you sit down for lunch somewhere. I'm sure hoping my own experience in the summer ahead won't serve as a "test case" on this!

G.

What theyll hold you responisible for...

... is littering. Has anyone ever bushwhacked around Flowed Lands? There are little cahe's of junk around, from years of bears grabbing bags.

Mike

Bearvault

I bought the Bearikade because of its very light (relative) weight; I figured that that was why I was paying the $200 it cost. It is hardly the be-all and end-all. It is, however, one of only two canisters (along with the Garcia) that has earned full approval in several western national parks:
<http://www.nps.gov/yose/wilderness/bfoodstorage.htm>
Prior to purchasing the Bearikade, I had bought the Ursack:
<http://www.ursack.com/home.htm>
which had "provisional" approval at the time. I used it without incident in areas other than the eastern Adirondacks for a few years, but it eventually proved totally ineffective while camping at Duck Hole last September. A bear tore it open and devoured its contents (including my toothpaste) in less than fifteen minutes. My hiking parner's Ursack met the same fate later that same night. Ursacks are no longer approved in western national parks.

The BearVault may eventually prove to be an effective bear-resistant container, but it may also prove a failure. Then you will be left with an expensive, bear-chewed piece of useless plastic. That's what my Ursack turned out to be. Caveat emptor. For about the same money and weight as the Bearvault, you can get the Garcia, which already has a proven record. See:
<http://www.backcountry-equipment.com/accessrs/bearcanisters-bags.html>

You can also both the Garcia and Bearikade canisters from various venues, if you're unprepared to make an outright purchase,

porky pine

Yes littering is a problem...

In case of rain we always carry a couple of "green" garbage bags with us. Last year on two separate occasions we walked back and brought home one half full, the first came from a "dump" near the water not very far from Avalanche Lean-To and second from a area near Lake Colden. The third time we encountered a large amount of litter, it was early Falls and as well near Lake Colden, this time not willing to again walk out with somebody else's trash we gave the bags to the campers nearby so that it will be easier for them even though they did not seem that interested even after admitting that what the bear had spread around was originaly theirs...


Since we cann't pick flowers or retrieve summit signs...