GPS info needed!

Kevin Rooney said:

You boys are hard on your toys. I've been using my Vista about twice a week for 5 or 6 years - no complaints. Clicker stick works fine, and I have no idea what rubber strip you're referring to.

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Maybe you are just lucky and got a more robust click stick. In any case, if it does cause you trouble, you will be far from alone.

The rubber strip in question is the black strip around the sides of the GPS. Leaving the GPS in a hot car also helps to degrade glue.

I am quite satisfied with the Vistas ability to maintain satellite lock - no complaints there. Occasionally in a narrow canyon I lose contact, but ... you already know where you are so you don't need it for navigation. My primary reason for upgrading is a better screen in bright and dim light.

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If it does what you need then that is good enough. I found that my (original, version #1) would lose lock when under tree coverage. (I would have to find a better spot and/or stop if I wanted to reestablish the lock.) The 60CS and 60CSx displays are certainly much better that the origional Vista. (I have all 3.) I haven't looked at a Vista HCx display, but the reports suggest that it is also much better than the original.

Check out the tracks from the GPS bakeoff http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14406. The 60CSx was far better at holding lock and was far more repeatable (and likely more accurate) than the Vista on a typical WMNF below timberline trail. Once you actually use an SIRF-StarIII (or MediaTek MT3 (the Garmin H GPSes)) you are likely to be impressed by the difference in their abilities to hold lock in the field.

Of course, there is no reason that we all have to buy the same model GPSes, but since most of the people on this BBS use a GPS for similar purposes it is not surprising that we tend to choose from the same short list.

Doug

DougPaul said:

Check out the tracks from the GPS bakeoff http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14406. The 60CSx was far better at holding lock and was far more repeatable (and likely more accurate) than the Vista on a typical WMNF below timberline trail. Once you actually use an SIRF-StarIII (or MediaTek MT3 (the Garmin H GPSes)) you are likely to be impressed by the difference in their abilities to hold lock in the field.

Of course, there is no reason that we all have to buy the same model GPSes, but since most of the people on this BBS use a GPS for similar purposes it is not surprising that we tend to choose from the same short list.

Doug

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Yes, I did read this thread, but doubt that it applies to the HCx and CSx models available today. I think the HCx with the new chipset was released after the bakeoff, so am basing my opinion of its reception on user reviews elsewhere. I also checked the rubber rand on my Vista, and aside from a bit of separation near the RS232 connection, it's intact. I haven't had the misfortune of leaving it on the dashboard in the hot sun.

Kevin Rooney said:

Yes, I did read this thread, but doubt that it applies to the HCx and CSx models available today. I think the HCx with the new chipset was released after the bakeoff, so am basing my opinion of its reception on user reviews elsewhere. I also checked the rubber rand on my Vista, and aside from a bit of separation near the RS232 connection, it's intact. I haven't had the misfortune of leaving it on the dashboard in the hot sun.

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The 60CSx's used in the bakeoff were the same model that you can buy today. None of the H line (including the Vista HCx) existed at the time.

I saw a side-by-side comparison of several GPSes (including SiRF-StarIII and MediaTek MT3 based units*) in urban canyons. The two appeared to give similar performance--the errors were different, but overall accuracy seemed similar. I haven't seen any comparisons based upon a woodsy route. I have looked at the datasheets and the specs look similar.

* the 60CSx uses an SiRF-StarIII GPS chipset and the Vista HCx uses a MediaTek MT3 GPS chpiset

As for the rubber strip, my glue is a bit gooey and I can slide the rubber strip around a bit, but the (Vista) GPS is still usable. Besides, I carry my 60CSx now...

Doug

DougPaul said:

I saw a side-by-side comparison of several GPSes (including SiRF-StarIII and MediaTek MT3 based units*) in urban canyons. The two appeared to give similar performance--the errors were different, but overall accuracy seemed similar. I haven't seen any comparisons based upon a woodsy route. I have looked at the datasheets and the performance looks similar.

* the 60CSx uses an SiRF-StarIII GPS chipset and the Vista HCx uses a MediaTek MT3 GPS chpiset

Doug

Click to expand...

This is consistent with user comments I've read elsewhere. People reported reception in their basements, urban apartments, dorms, etc with the Vista HCx, which is probably similar to the 60CSx. With my old Vista I have to get it near a window to get a lock on one or two satellites. But, as I've said before - I'm mostly interested in the new one for the better display.

A bit off the subject, but I received the upgrade of Garmin's MapSource, now called Topo 2008, and have had a chance to use it on a couple of hikes. There are some improvements -

- The maps are now stored on the PC's drive, so you can move from coast to coast with only minimal delay and response time to such things as "Display tracks on map" is much quicker. They have changed the marketed name to Topo 2008, but the executable is still mapsource.exe.

- The shading on the maps has improved - much easier to see valleys, peaks, water, etc. Can't say that it's noticeable on my B&W Vista, but it's much better when planning a trip.

Overall, it was a good value. Amazon discounted the $119 MSRP to $57.10, and there was a $30 rebate for previous users. Is it as good as National Geographics products? No, but ... as far as I'm concerned, the Garmin software is essential to get the most from your GPS.

Finally - it used to bother me that Garmin software often contained old or abandoned trails. Lately I've come to appreciate that as a feature, as sometimes these old routes are the ones I want to explore.

Double Bow said:

I will primarily be using it for bushwhacking in the Whites and am hoping to use it in conjuction w/my NG Topo! software.

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From doing Whitecap & Kennebago Divide with you a few years ago I KNOW you know your way around the woods with a MAP & COMPASS. So, what is it that you really need or want in your future GPS?

If it is to simply reach a summit, then find your car afterwards, a simple base model works just fine.
If your looking to make those nifty "Bob & Geri trax" a more sophisticated unit is required.
If your concern is getting a "fix" in the woods, just buy some rechargeable NMH batteries and leave the unit on all day.

A GPS is a great tool... you'll enjoy whatever you get!

onestep said:

From doing Whitecap & Kennebago Divide with you a few years ago I KNOW you know your way around the woods with a MAP & COMPASS. So, what is it that you really need or want in your future GPS?

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Yeah, I've been a GPS-naysayer in the past, but I've also gotten turned around before. One time while checking out a bog near Boundary Peak, I came out at the wrong place and if I hadn't taken a wrong turn on the way to my starting point, I wouldn't have known where I was and how to get back to my car and the U.S. of A. Je no par le vous francaise!!

I don't really NEED a GPS to find the summit. My car on the other hand...

So, I'd like to have a GPS:

* as a piece of emergency gear in case of whiteout conditions
* to consult when I'm sure my compass is wrong
* to improve my confidence when whacking in flattish areas
* to see where I am in relation to where I want to be
* to have a new cool toy and make cool tracks of my trips

Kevin Rooney said:

This is consistent with user comments I've read elsewhere. People reported reception in their basements, urban apartments, dorms, etc with the Vista HCx, which is probably similar to the 60CSx. With my old Vista I have to get it near a window to get a lock on one or two satellites. But, as I've said before - I'm mostly interested in the new one for the better display.

Click to expand...

Fortunately they come in the same package and you will not have to choose between them. I think you will appreciate the improvement on both fronts.

A bit off the subject, but I received the upgrade of Garmin's MapSource, now called Topo 2008, and have had a chance to use it on a couple of hikes. There are some improvements -

- The maps are now stored on the PC's drive, so you can move from coast to coast with only minimal delay and response time to such things as "Display tracks on map" is much quicker. They have changed the marketed name to Topo 2008, but the executable is still mapsource.exe.

- The shading on the maps has improved - much easier to see valleys, peaks, water, etc. Can't say that it's noticeable on my B&W Vista, but it's much better when planning a trip.

Overall, it was a good value. Amazon discounted the $119 MSRP to $57.10, and there was a $30 rebate for previous users. Is it as good as National Geographics products? No, but ... as far as I'm concerned, the Garmin software is essential to get the most from your GPS.

Finally - it used to bother me that Garmin software often contained old or abandoned trails. Lately I've come to appreciate that as a feature, as sometimes these old routes are the ones I want to explore.

Click to expand...

Mapsource is the program, Topo 2008 is the data. The different mapping products all come with some version of mapsource and the appropriate data. If you want the latest version of mapsource, you can download it from http://www.garmin.com/support/mappingsw.jsp (free). (You can get the latest version of the GPS software from http://www.garmin.com/support/blosp.jsp.)

You could always store the maps on disk, if only by copying the cdroms to disk and installing from the disk copy.

I have also purchased Topo 2008. It does look like a general improvement although it is worse in spots. I haven't loaded it into the GPS yet, so I don't know what it looks like on the GPS screen. Topo 2008 also contains DEMs.

The Garmin topo maps are based upon USGS data and, just like paper topos, often contain old trails. (USGS topos are available as DRGs (scans of the paper maps) from http://libremap.org/. Garmin probably derived its topos from the USGS DLGs from http://edc2.usgs.gov/geodata/. DLGs are smaller than DRGs and are easily scaled for computer or GPS display.)

DEM=digital elevation map
DRG=digital raster graphics
DLG=digital line graphics

Doug

DougPaul said:

Mapsource is the program, Topo 2008 is the data. The different mapping products all come with some version of mapsource and the appropriate data. If you want the latest version of mapsource, you can download it from http://www.garmin.com/support/mappingsw.jsp (free). (You can get the latest version of the GPS software from http://www.garmin.com/support/blosp.jsp.)

You could always store the maps on disk, if only by copying the cdroms to disk and installing from the disk copy. Doug

Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying that - I should have qualified my previous MapSource program, which is United States TOPO. I've tried your suggestion of installing it on the hard drive some time ago, but couldn't get it to work correctly. I suspect the first install made an entry into the register which wasn't updated, and I didn't wish to risk a registry hack.

In terms of updating the GPS firmware - while your link will definitely work, I prefer their WebUpdater feature. With the GPS connected and ON, activate that program, and it will compare your version against the latest, and allow you to update automatically if you choose.

BTW - there's new version of MapSource, dated 12/4/07.

Kevin Rooney said:

Thanks for clarifying that - I should have qualified my previous MapSource program, which is United States TOPO. I've tried your suggestion of installing it on the hard drive some time ago, but couldn't get it to work correctly. I suspect the first install made an entry into the register which wasn't updated, and I didn't wish to risk a registry hack.

Click to expand...

I'm no PC expert, but I have read sets of instructions to the effect that one can reinstall to change to disk-only. I've also read that one can edit the registry to achieve the same effect. (I installed from an on-disk image from the start so I never had to deal with it.)

In terms of updating the GPS firmware - while your link will definitely work, I prefer their WebUpdater feature. With the GPS connected and ON, activate that program, and it will compare your version against the latest, and allow you to update automatically if you choose.

Click to expand...

A number of people have had problems with WebUpdater. Downloading the update and installing manually is more reliable. I prefer the latter because there is less to go wrong at the critical install phase.

BTW - there's new version of MapSource, dated 12/4/07.

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Thanks--I've had it for several days now.

Garmin has updated Mapsource 10 times so far this year, so it is worth checking periodically.

BTW, the 60CSx is at ver 3.50 (8/6/2007) and GPS chipset is at 2.90 (11/28/2006).

Doug

DougPaul said:

BTW2, you can get Garmin Topo US 2008 for US$78. http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-MapSou...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1196965570&sr=8-1

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This price is only when you update the Topo version, Doug?

yvon said:

This price is only when you update the Topo version, Doug?

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No. That is Amazon's purchase price for Garmin Topo US 2008. You can get a US$30 additional rebate if you own the previous version (Garmin US Topo). http://www8.garmin.com/whatsNew/currentpromotions/pdfs/topo_rebate.pdf

Doug

DougPaul said:

You can get a US$30 additional rebate if you own the previous version (Garmin US Topo). http://www8.garmin.com/whatsNew/currentpromotions/pdfs/topo_rebate.pdf

Doug

Click to expand...

The rebate appears to have expired for new purchases. "This coupon is redeemable only by residents of the U.S. and Canada and may not be combined with any other offer directly from Garmin. Offer is valid for qualifying purchases made by retail consumers at www.garmin.com or from a Garmin distributor between June 1, 2007 and December 1, 2007 and must be postmarked by December 31, 2007." (emphasis mine).

I posted the info to a thread here.

sardog1 said:

With long term use, our Vistas started failing at the toggle switch. I'm skeptical that the flaw can ever really be fixed so long as the toggle design is kept. There's just so much pressure, applied so many times, from so many directions, to that tiny lever.

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Concur, my Vista is an older model but has seen very little use. I use it mainly to transfer data from NG topo to my 60CSx. It is failing at the rocker switch.

Kevin Rooney said:

The rebate appears to have expired for new purchases. "This coupon is redeemable only by residents of the U.S. and Canada and may not be combined with any other offer directly from Garmin. Offer is valid for qualifying purchases made by retail consumers at www.garmin.com or from a Garmin distributor between June 1, 2007 and December 1, 2007 and must be postmarked by December 31, 2007." (emphasis mine).

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Oh well... Thanks for the correction.

I think I confused the dates with those of the 60CSx rebate...

Still a good deal, even without the rebate.

BTW, all Garmin rebates: http://www8.garmin.com/whatsNew/currentpromotions/

Doug

Sooo... would it not make sense to give the Magellan Triton 500 a try since I would be able to use my NG Topo! software on it? It seems to have many of/most of the features of the Gamin 60CSx.

There is a report on alt.satellite.gps.garmin (dated 22 Nov 2007) of a new Vista HCx exhibiting random freezes and a "me too" report on 11 Dec 2007. (Remove the batteries to unfreeze.) The users tried the obvious things--resets, remove the microSD card, software updates, etc.

I have no idea if this affects every unit or if it only happens when certain modes are enabled (or disabled).

In the past, there have been similar problems with some Garmin GPSes which have been fixed by software updates.

Doug

DougPaul said:

There is a report on alt.satellite.gps.garmin (dated 22 Nov 2007) of a new Vista HCx exhibiting random freezes and a "me too" report on 11 Dec 2007. (Remove the batteries to unfreeze.) The users tried the obvious things--resets, remove the microSD card, software updates, etc.

I have no idea if this affects every unit or if it only happens when certain modes are enabled (or disabled).

In the past, there have been similar problems with some Garmin GPSes which have been fixed by software updates.

Doug

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Yikes! Thanks for posting this, Doug. I may wait a bit longer on my particular purchase because 1) the Magellan Triton introduction may drive Garmin prices down, and 2) my REI dividend should be substantial this year (I did lots of construction this last year, and much of the construction went thru the Visa card). Am not too worried longterm about the new Vista - it's their flagship model for the portion of their line, is getting great views, etc, and as you point out, get fixed with software upgrades.

Kevin Rooney said:

Yikes! Thanks for posting this, Doug. I may wait a bit longer on my particular purchase because 1) the Magellan Triton introduction may drive Garmin prices down, and 2) my REI dividend should be substantial this year

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Since Garmin dominates this market, my guess is that Magellan's offerings will not have much effect. (Just my wild guess.) You can generally get better prices on GPSes at other places than REI. Price reductions and rebates often precede introduction of a new model.

Am not too worried longterm about the new Vista - it's their flagship model for the portion of their line, is getting great views, etc, and as you point out, get fixed with software upgrades.

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Flagship of their second tier line. They will probably fix it if enough people have the problem. I see 2 software versions: 2.30 (~3 Aug 2007) and 2.40 (26 Sept 2007)

FYI: Garmin software archive: http://www.gpsinformation.org/perry/
and Garmin updates: http://www8.garmin.com/support/blosp.jsp

Doug

There is a long thread discussing Magellan here: http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=170441

It looks like it is worth a read if you are seriously interested in buying a recent Magellan.

There seems to be a lot of dissatisfaction with Magellan's customer service.

Doug

Magellan 1500

I asked for and received a Magellan 1500 for x-mas. Nice unit, pretty fast at acquiring satellites. I asked for it because I have been using Topo! software since 1998 and figured this would save me a few bucks over a Garmin and let me easily import all my waypoints and routes I made.

The negatives: no software, cable, or manual came with it. Just the unit, two batteries, and four extra stylus'. Yes, this is what other people complained about, but I thought Magellan would have straighted it out in the past few weeks.

Anyway, eager to use it I downloaded the software from Magellan website and hooked up an SD card to my computer. Found out the software can only load Topo! maps via the cable. Hopefully customer service will come through with the cable quickly; everything else I downloaded from Magellan's website.

I don't want to this to read as a venting -- just an FYI for those considering buying one. If I had to do it over, I would pay the price premium and buy it in person (after looking in the box.)