Don't Understand Softshell

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mdavis

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Chenango Bridge, NY
I absolutely love my Mountain Hardwear Transition Zip Tee and Arcteryx Gamma MX jacket. Snow sheds right off and I stay dry all day long. Whenever I use a Gortex Jacket I get drenched every time I hike (from sweat and snow doesn't shed well from Goretex Jackets). But when I wash the softshell and get it totally drenched (inside and out) it takes forever to dry. So I was wondering why something that performs so well while hiking takes so long to dry after washing? Just seems weird to me.

Any ideas?
 
You'll get more detailed explanations than this I hope, this is off the top of head; Moisture wicking is a dynamic process. When you're hiking water vapor is escaping via capillary (and other ?) action. Rain or clothes washer water is water in it's liquid, not vapor, state, which is why these things can dump moisture while hiking and still be water resistant. My soft shell dumps moisture all day but when I stop hiking and take it off at the end of the day it feels damp inside. I turn it inside out to let it quickly air dry before using it again.
 
Chip said:
You'll get more detailed explanations than this I hope, this is off the top of head; Moisture wicking is a dynamic process. When you're hiking water vapor is escaping via capillary (and other ?) action. Rain or clothes washer water is water in it's liquid, not vapor, state, which is why these things can dump moisture while hiking and still be water resistant. My soft shell dumps moisture all day but when I stop hiking and take it off at the end of the day it feels damp inside. I turn it inside out to let it quickly air dry before using it again.
I notice the same thing with Gortex Boots. As long as I'm wearing them, my feet stay (more or less) dry even when the outside is wet. The heat of my feet is pushing the vapor out.

When I take them off, the moisture gets back into "equilibrium" and after an hour or so both inside and outside feel wet. (If I can, I stuff newspapers in them overnight.)

In the morning, I put them on and they initially feel wet inside, but after 1/2 hour or so they feel dry again.
 
Chip said:
You'll get more detailed explanations than this I hope, this is off the top of head; Moisture wicking is a dynamic process. When you're hiking water vapor is escaping via capillary (and other ?) action. Rain or clothes washer water is water in it's liquid, not vapor, state, which is why these things can dump moisture while hiking and still be water resistant. My soft shell dumps moisture all day but when I stop hiking and take it off at the end of the day it feels damp inside. I turn it inside out to let it quickly air dry before using it again.

That says about what I was trying to put together in my head - at some point all of these fabrics can oversaturate, or not move water away from you quick enough - GoreTex does not work well for me and I have moved away from traditional shells and use a combination of Marmot windshirts and Precips and coolmax shirts for a very wide variety of temps - it just wicks better for me. The best thing about some of these fabrics are that they will dry out quickly - not that they keep you dry - GoreTex boots come to mind...
 
mdavis said:
I absolutely love my Mountain Hardwear Transition Zip Tee and Arcteryx Gamma MX jacket. Snow sheds right off and I stay dry all day long. Whenever I use a Gortex Jacket I get drenched every time I hike (from sweat and snow doesn't shed well from Goretex Jackets). But when I wash the softshell and get it totally drenched (inside and out) it takes forever to dry. So I was wondering why something that performs so well while hiking takes so long to dry after washing? Just seems weird to me.
Any ideas?
The formulas and engineering of these things is proprietary so this is just conjecture on my part. The Schoeller type fabrics have a coating on individual fibers that is very low surface energy (Examples Teflon, silicones, and polypropylene). Water vapor has no affinity for it, hence little condensation to liquid water on the fibers, and the vapor diffuses between the fibers and out in to the atmosphere. In the liquid state, water has much greater affinity for itself, beads up, and rolls off the surface.

Okay now your question is "Why does it take so long to dry?" I have to answer that I have two soft shells one is a Schoeller type fabric and the other is not. Once wet the Schoeller drys very quickly and the other non-schoeller type drys very slowly. To touch, the Schoeller type does not seem to get as wet as the other non-Schoeller type.

I think you may have washed much of the coating off and it is losing its ability to shed water. Have you been using Tech-Wash, and/or the other rejuvinating products available? Try them if not.
 
Gris said:
paging Doug Paul...resident Bot... :D
I just got back from a walk wearing my Schoeller fabric jacket and pants. Everything stayed dry...

I have no data on how fast Schoeller fabric dries, but as Paradox states, it is a fabric made with a fiber that has a hydrophobic coating.

Perhaps one can make a comparison between Schoeller fabric and wool (a hydrophilic fiber with a hydrophobic coating) vs cotton (an uncoated hydrophilic fiber). Cotton wets and dries quickly. Wool wets slowly and dries slowly because the hydrophobic coating slows the transport of water to and from the hydrophilic fiber. (Wool has been called the original soft-shell fabric...)


Other notes:
1. Goretex requires a temperature difference across it to drive the moisture outward (in vapor form).
2. Any fabric with a wind/moisture barrier (eg windblock fleece, anything with a Goretex layer) in it will dry more slowly because the wind/moisture barrier reduces the airflow through the fabric. Moisture barriers also require the two sides of the fabric to dry separately because moisture cannot wick from the wetter side to the drier side.
3. Strictly speaking, wicking and capillary action apply only to liquids, not vapor.

Doug
 
Thanks for the info

I'm probably overstating how long it took to dry. I washed them by hand and couldn't really wring them out much.

I became a softshell convert when I fell into a stream hiking and everything that was fleece was soaked but the Arcteryx Gamma (powershield) stayed completely dry or at least dryed very quickly. Since then I've worn nothing else, so when I washed them I expected the water to jump right off. But they took a while to dry (but nowhere near what it takes other materials to dry). But in order to get them wet in the first place I had to hold them under water for quite a while.

At any rate its great stuff!
 
I think they were mighty confused people refering to wool as an original
soft shell...
Now Egyptian cotton as an original wind proof, now that I can go for....

but neither like water.. well actually they like water to much and soak it up like a sponge..its the person wearing them that won't be likeing the water.
 
Paradox said:
While a temperature difference is very often present, I think what is needed is a concentration gradient.
Actually a difference in vapor pressure across the membrane. In normal hiking situations, this is primarily driven by a temperature difference.

Doug
 
spider solo said:
I think they were mighty confused people refering to wool as an original soft shell...
Ever try wearing wool in light rain? The water beads up on the outside and you stay dry on the inside. At least for a while.

I've often worn a wool hat in light snow--you get an icy layer on the outside and again stay warm and dry on the inside. This time, it can work for hours.

Doug
 
I'm a fleece man

because it wets slowly and dries quickly

maybe it has something to do with surface area - micro speaking, of course... ;-)
 
making a hydro-phobic garment

DougPaul said:
Ever try wearing wool in light rain? The water beads up on the outside and you stay dry on the inside. At least for a while.

I've often worn a wool hat in light snow--you get an icy layer on the outside and again stay warm and dry on the inside. This time, it can work for hours.

Doug

No, I had never noticed that. Thinking water as the nemises of wool I gave it a little mini test...I took one of my wife's gloves and poured some water on it.
Though my hand got instantly wet, some water did pool up on the surface. Then I took my canvas mukluks (which I have worn in a stream or two if it was just a quick hop across) Poured some water on it The water ran off and my hand stayed dry.
then
I did take a sponge ...poured some water on it and sure enough the water did pool up some running off some soaking in...much like the wool.
... but in all fairnes it was probably the weave off the wool & cotton that determined how much they shed water ...I would think a felted wool hat would shed more water much like the canvass did.

Okay don't want to beat that horse to much longer.

Meanwhile back to Soft Shells :
I love it when sales reps come in an start with the articulated, hydro-phobic, extreem dry talk. (much like when they talk about load lifting backpacks making your load feel light....till you put 50lbs in it)

I would venture many of us have made an emergency hydro -phobic garment when caught in the rain...
...here's how
Take one large trash bag
....turn it upside down..
...cut a hole for your head..
....cut holes for your arms... Viola !! one hydro- phobic garment !!

(just a little humor..not directed at anyone in sales or marketing or related kin who may work in those fields or who once talked to someone who knew someone who...etc ...
 
Last edited:
spider solo said:
No, I had never noticed that. Thinking water as the nemises of wool I gave it a little mini test...I took one of my wife's gloves and poured some water on it.
Though my hand got instantly wet, some water did pool up on the surface. Then I took my canvas mukluks (which I have worn in a stream or two if it was just a quick hop across) Poured some water on it The water ran off and my hand stayed dry.
then
I did take a sponge ...poured some water on it and sure enough the water did pool up some running off some soaking in...much like the wool.
... but in all fairnes it was probably the weave off the wool & cotton that determined how much they shed water ...I would think a felted wool hat would shed more water much like the canvass did.
Wool can survive getting wet, last I knew sheep didn't wear rain gear. The properties of wool can be altered by how it is treated during manufacture of the fabric. You don't say what kind of glove you used or how tight the weave is--a non-hiking glove might be treated very differently than a wool hiking glove/mitten or a hiking sock*. When I hand wash my Smartwool wool socks, the wool tends to float on the water rather soak in. (Wool will keep the inside dry in a very light rain but will soak through after a while or in a heavy rain.) I suspect the mukluk canvas is designed repel water as much as possible. (The fibers in cotton canvas tend to swell when wet which is how cotton canvas tents remain waterproof until you touch them.)

* My guess is that any difference between the wool outdoor clothing of today and yesterday (I have Merino wool long underwear from the 1970s) has to do with more advanced treatments, etc than any changes in the raw wool.

And wool still has the relatively unique property of still insulating fairly well when wet.

Take one large trash bag
....turn it upside down..
...cut a hole for your head..
....cut holes for your arms... Viola !! one hydro- phobic garment !!
Yeah, but it isn't very breathable and doesn't cost enough for the industry to hype it as the next miracle... (But it is very light weight. :) )

Doug
 
humor... Doug Paul... humor...
of course, my "mini test" was skewed. ...I didn't even mention what knd of sponge I used.

My in-laws have a goat and sheep farm. They spin their own wool etc.
but I'm not sure they will trust me with banyard animals anymore ...
I mean just one time with a sheep and....well never mind...
 
DougPaul said:
Actually a difference in vapor pressure across the membrane. In normal hiking situations, this is primarily driven by a temperature difference. Doug
We are discussing which is more important: kinetics versus thermodynamics. The only thing temperature "drives" is which way heat flows. It will increase the rate of water vapor transport but it does not drive it.
 
Paradox said:
We are discussing which is more important: kinetics versus thermodynamics. The only thing temperature "drives" is which way heat flows. It will increase the rate of water vapor transport but it does not drive it.
Seems to be that we are becoming enmeshed in fine points here...

The temperature of a warm damp object is a major factor in controlling the vapor pressure. Your body heat warming the interior vs the colder exterior is what ultimately drives the moisture outward through a waterproof-breathable membrane.

Doug
 
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