Garmin 60CSx - disappointed

I just ordered the Garmin CSX, it hasn't arrived yet...
I did lots of research and am hoping I made the right choice. I think they all have their limitations, and it depends on what feature is most important to you.

I was most concerned about signal, I have hiked with many hikers who had some of the cheaper/older GPS's and they seem to always be trying to get signal.

I did read on Amazon's reviews of the product about the "walking", so watch for a firmware update from Garmin.

(GPS "Walking": The 60CSx tends to walk around when stopped for a while causing the stopped time and distance traveled to be inaccurate. Garmin is aware of the problem and has stated it will be fixed with a firmware release.)

Hope this helps someone.

Given how important the onboard maps are to you, you should at least check out the magellan triton series. They let you upload maps from national geo topo, which are 24k series and considered much more detailed than the garmins. I haven't really paid attention to reviews of the tritons now that they are shipping, but there were some concerns last fall before they came out. Not sure they have been discussed very much here.

I have a geko, which doesn't have mapping, and use Topo to plan my routes and to upload that data to the GPS (which works well and something you should consider in the future, since it is useful). For example, you can premark access points or bouys or coves or other details for the coast generally and have them on your GPS for reference generally.

I also don't know anything about the quality of the Topo maps for the coast of Hawaii, so you may want to check that out first too. Can you return the garmin maps now that you have bought them?

http://www.magellangps.com/products/product.asp?segID=425

I believe a GPS unit will walk when you have it set to record tracklog points that put a 'breadcrumb' at time intervals. If you set it to record tracklog points for distance intervals, then it shouldn't happen. Or when you stop for lunch, turn off navigation and turn it back on( I forget) when you resume.
You may be referring to a different thing, though.

Alan

SAR-EMT40 said:

Vertical error can be different though. The DEMs are discrete and as such any height values reported (if they are not on the exact spot where the reading is taken) from them are interpolated.

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I thought DEMs were intended to be the average over the square. But it doesn't matter--a single number cannot accurately represent the altitude of all points in a square.

DEM squares seem to come in standard sizes--I've seen 30meter and 90 meter squares.

Doug

Darl58 said:

I did read on Amazon's reviews of the product about the "walking", so watch for a firmware update from Garmin.

(GPS "Walking": The 60CSx tends to walk around when stopped for a while causing the stopped time and distance traveled to be inaccurate. Garmin is aware of the problem and has stated it will be fixed with a firmware release.)

Click to expand...

All GPSes do some wandering when stationary. It is simply due to random errors changing over time. No biggie.

IIRC, The specific issue was with the eTrex HCx models (not the 60CSx). GPSes use a heuristic to guess whether a user is stationary or moving to decide whether to add the movement to the odometer reading. This is very easy to do for automotive speeds, but can become difficult for slow walking speeds. IIRC, Garmin was essentially lowering the move/stationary speed threshold.


A general warning: there are lots of people out there with GPSes and internet connections. Many of these people don't really understand GPSes and generate all sorts of incorrect explanations for what they observe. Some of these misinterpretations become folklore. So be careful about believing everything you read.

Doug

Peakbagr said:

I believe a GPS unit will walk when you have it set to record tracklog points that put a 'breadcrumb' at time intervals. If you set it to record tracklog points for distance intervals, then it shouldn't happen. Or when you stop for lunch, turn off navigation and turn it back on( I forget) when you resume.

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As I noted in the previous post, all GPSes will wander when stationary. If you are recording a track, you will see a scattering of points (typically plotted with lines connecting them) loosely centered at your location. IMO the simplest thing to do is to be aware of this, recognize it when it happens (it indicates that the user was stationary at that location for a period), and to otherwise ignore it. You can also edit tracks to remove these spots if you wish.


In the GPS-bakeoff #2 thread, I recorded data from 2 stationary GPSes located about 6in from each other for periods of 12hrs. The items of interest were how far apart the two average locations were and how big the scatter (standard deviation) was. One could also look at the time correlation in the error--it was positive from 0-90min and then swung negative, IIRC. (This was probably due to errors in the broadcast satellite ephemeris and satellite clock errors.)

Doug

DougPaul said:

I thought DEMs were intended to be the average over the square. But it doesn't matter--a single number cannot accurately represent the altitude of all points in a square.

DEM squares seem to come in standard sizes--I've seen 30meter and 90 meter squares.

Doug

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You could be right Doug. I am doing this from memory from 1998 and could be as early as 1993. I did a fair amount of work with DLG's, DRG's and DEM's back then. A lot of work with the DLG's less work with the DEM's and even less with DRG's which again if I remember correctly where basically a flavor of TIFF file called geoTiffs. I thought I remembered that the DEM's were spot elevations and I thought I remembered the ones I used as being 100 meter spacing but like I said it was a while ago and my memory isn't the greatest.

Regards,
Keith

SAR-EMT40 said:

You could be right Doug. I am doing this from memory from 1998 and could be as early as 1993. I did a fair amount of work with DLG's, DRG's and DEM's back then. A lot of work with the DLG's less work with the DEM's and even less with DRG's which again if I remember correctly where basically a flavor of TIFF file called geoTiffs. I thought I remembered that the DEM's were spot elevations and I thought I remembered the ones I used as being 100 meter spacing but like I said it was a while ago and my memory isn't the greatest.

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DEMs: doesn't matter for our purposes--it is still one number representing a sizable area.

One of the shuttle flights carried a terrain mapping radar--a popular source for much of the DEM data (often called SRTM data). http://srtm.usgs.gov/

The USGS Topo DRGs are stored as TIFF files. Strictly speaking, they are just scanned image files so they can be stored in any of a number of formats.

Doug

Thanks for the input so far. For my uses, I think the quality of the maps is more important than knowing my exact position to within 10'. As Toe Cozy so eloquently put it, I do not bushwack. I also do not plan all my hikes or paddles on teh computer before I go. I find that more often than not I head North with the intention of doing a specific hike and then when I get there for whatever reason I end up doing something completely different. 24k maps on the computer do me no good at that point. I want the 24k map in my hand (actually, yes, I will have a good paper map in my hand, but I want the 24k quality in the gps as well).

At this point, I am leaning towards returning the 60CSx and getting the Delorme PN-20. Anyone else use the PN-20? I'd like to hear more about it's ability to get signal. One thing that I have to say about the 60CSx is that I can get signal from 6 birds while in my livingroom. As an RF guy I have to say that it appears to have amazing performance. I understand that a gps with a good map is a "rock" if it doesn't get signal, so I would like to hear more from people experienced with it.

Thanks.

- darren

ps: for the kayakers out there, Delorme now has scanned NOAA nautical charts available for download and use on the pc AND in the gps. The charts are $10 each (which is around the price of a paper chart). This feature alone might sell me on the PN-20.

http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=10325

One other thing. Toe is right about the $299 price for the PN-20. If you buy it from any retailer, Delorme has an online mail-in coupon that will rebate the price down to $299. I called Delorme sales dept and they said that they will "price match" the retailer coupon and sell you the unit over the phone for $299. The $299 price is for the PN-20, full topo USA 7.0, and a 1 GB SD card and reader. You can still get the travel pack (car charger, rechargable battery etc) for another $49.

24k topo maps (7.5' USGS quads) are available for the entire US. You can download them individually or bundle them and purchase by state(s). VT+NH is $99, MA+RI is $99, HI is $99. Plus the NOAA marine navigation charts for $10 each.

Looks like I am getting a PN-20 unless someone talks me out of it...

Aloha

- darren

darren said:

...Looks like I am getting a PN-20 unless someone talks me out of it...

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Since reception shouldn't be much of an issue if you're sea kayaking and don't bushwhack, and the maps suit your purposes better, it sounds like a better choice.

For us hard-core backcountry hiker types though, unless I was a solid Mac user, I can't see a Magellen in my future.

Kevin Rooney said:

Since reception shouldn't be much of an issue if you're sea kayaking and don't bushwhack, and the maps suit your purposes better, it sounds like a better choice.

For us hard-core backcountry hiker types though, unless I was a solid Mac user, I can't see a Magellen in my future.

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I wasn't aware that you had to bushwack to be considered "hard-core". Most hard-core hiking to me occurs above treeline. But then that is a matter of personal preference. I did enough crashing around through trees when I was kid - mostly because there were no trails in my area and I was forced to make my own. Now, as an adult, when hiking in the vacinity of trees I tend to hike where there is a trail.

Not sure what a Mac has to do with a Magellan, but I do not see one of those in my future either. They do not even sell topo maps anymore.

- darren

Kevin Rooney said:

For us hard-core backcountry hiker types though, unless I was a solid Mac user, I can't see a Magellen in my future.

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I should have pointed out before that the Magellen Triton GPS do not support macs. So even though National Geo Topo runs on macs, you don't use that to upload maps to the Triton, you need to run the PC software for the map upload. Plus if you have the Topo maps for the mac, you would have to convert them or buy them again to run them for the PC.

If you are buying this for kayaking, have you looked at the marine GPSs? Are you going to mount this? If you are navigating in high seas, you may not be able to dig out a handheld. I can read my geko strapped to my pack in my canoe, but that is just displaying a large arrow pointing to a way point. I can't see being able to read much on a map mounted several feet in front of me on a small handheld display regardless of the quality of the source map.

Does the PN20 have a compass? I don't see that. If you plan to stop and dig out the GPS to look at it, then keep in mind that the GPS will stay oriented to your previous direction of travel and will not correct itself if you rotate. So if wind or waves turn your boat, the GPS will not "look right" and can appear to be signficantly off. Even though I know this (and my geko has a compass, which when on will correct for this), I have at times caught myself getting confused at times.

There is something not quite right with the Magellan. Some of you will most likely know the specifics. EMS staff told me that the problem is projected to be rectified soon. REI is not selling these until whatever is wrong is made right because there were so many coming back to the store.
I think it was something more serious than not being MAC compatible.

darren said:

Not sure what a Mac has to do with a Magellan, but I do not see one of those in my future either. They do not even sell topo maps anymore.

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One of my friends is an inveterate Mac user, and would like to purchase a good GPS, but it has to run on his Mac. Garmin has promised Mac compatibility for a long time, but from what I understand it's still in beta. He tells me Magellan has supported Macs for a long time.

As for above treeline hiking - personally, I find it much easier to navigate there, assuming visibility is not a factor.

Edit - Maddy: As I recall, Magellen is having production problems with their new Colorado series. And, their packaging QC is suspect - people report missing cables, manuals, etc.

michaelb said:

Does the PN20 have a compass? I don't see that. If you plan to stop and dig out the GPS to look at it, then keep in mind that the GPS will stay oriented to your previous direction of travel and will not correct itself if you rotate. So if wind or waves turn your boat, the GPS will not "look right" and can appear to be signficantly off. Even though I know this (and my geko has a compass, which when on will correct for this), I have at times caught myself getting confused at times.

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Does the GPS have a "North up" display mode? If so, it is not subject to these problems.

FWIW, I always use north up on both my GPS and paper maps.

Doug

Kevin Rooney said:

[l]
Edit - Maddy: As I recall, Magellen is having production problems with their new Colorado series. And, their packaging QC is suspect - people report missing cables, manuals, etc.[/I]

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Are you perhaps confusing Garmin's new Colorado series with a Magellan product?

Doug

DougPaul said:

Are you perhaps confusing Garmin's new Colorado series with a Magellan product?

Doug

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Good catch, Doug. Yes - Magellan's new product is not the Colorado (that's Garmin) - rather, it's the Triton. Thanks.

DougPaul said:

Are you perhaps confusing Garmin's new Colorado series with a Magellan product?

Doug

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I don't think so. It came to my attention when I heard an EMS salesperson extolling the wonders of the Magellan for hiking. I subsequently asked this individual about it and mentioned to him that the hikers on the boards really liked the Garmin 60 CSx. I then called REI and they told me they had taken the Magellan off the shelves until the problem is resolved.
If I am in the EMS area this weekend, I will try to get more specific info.

Dugan said:

(I haven't looked at Magellan mostly because there's little or no talk of it among the hiking boards. Perhaps it is time to take a look.)

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If you are looking for info on the Magellan Triton this is the website you want. http://www.tritonforum.com/index.html The Triton at this point has quite a few bugs but a lot of potential. If the firmware updates continue to come in it should end up being a good GPS. I have a Triton 400.