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Thread: Trailhead Parking Restrictions: Little River Rd.

  1. #16
    Banned Kevin Rooney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giggy View Post
    AMC making the locals happy again - I see.

    as long as the folks in metro boston can get their list check off......
    That very well might be so, giggy. But, keep in mind that any large group of hikers will most likely be tagged "AMC", whether they are or not, to an observer.

    And, even if most of the hikers in a group are also members of the AMC (not an uncommon occurence) it's only an "AMC Hike" if it's a published hike, officially sanctioned by either Joy Street or a Chapter.

    Keep in mind - I am not saying the groups who took advance of the landowner at the end of the road either were or were not AMC - just wanted to point out that "AMC" is often painted with a pretty broad brush.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadRiver View Post
    Just curious, how much walking do you save by parking at the motel vs. just walking up the road?
    You don't - but the issue is that by walking up the road you need to tresspass across the posted property and bridge in order to access the trails. Last time we were there the road is not posted for no parking - but the property you must cross is posted. Like others have said - park at 7 Dwarfs - support Franz. Grab a snack - use the restrooms.

    kevin - We have seen hikers from both offical AMC hikes as well as other non-AMC groups park at the end of the road and tresspass.

    Lets all set a good example and abide by the owners wishes.

  3. #18
    Senior Member MichaelJ's Avatar
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    I think MadRiver meant how much time/walking do you save parking at the motel vs. walking *Haystack* Road. I've walked that road: it's not a big deal and it's a smooth xc-ski; however, there's not really a good place to park at Rte 3.
    May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

  4. #19
    Banned Kevin Rooney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arm View Post
    we've paid Franz to park overnight in the past ... what do you do when nobody's there ? slip a fin under the door ?
    .
    Yup, that's what I've done on more than one occasion.

  5. #20
    Senior Member jniehof's Avatar
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    Obviously now that the property is posted and the owner has made wishes clear, Seven Dwarves is the way to go. But I'm a little confused as to what the proper procedure would have been (and, by extension, might be in similar circumstances.) Bob, you say you contacted the owner...how did you make contact? Look it up in the assessor's office? I presume NH does not have the law that public access is permitted if the land is unposted, unfenced, and undeveloped?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jniehof View Post
    Obviously now that the property is posted and the owner has made wishes clear, Seven Dwarves is the way to go.
    FYI - as pointed out in an earlier post - it has been posted for the past several years - at three that we know of. Sounds like the owner may have stepped up the enforcement or more signs

  7. #22
    Junior Member Bob T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jniehof View Post
    Bob, you say you contacted the owner...how did you make contact?
    I was truly a newbie to the LRV last season so I read here about 7Dwarfs and tried Franz who didn't return a vmsg. (This year I got him right away). I then called the Trudeau Rd. office of the WMNF. They didn't know what to do, but said they would call me back. They did a little research and provided me the name and number of the land owner.

    My take away is to park at 7Dwarfs and use Franz's bridge and not park at the end of the road nor use the bridge down there. The two bridges both lead to the same place so it's win-win.
    Last edited by Bob T; 12-12-2008 at 11:10 AM.

  8. #23
    Senior Member RoySwkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobandgeri View Post
    FYI - as pointed out in an earlier post - it has been posted for the past several years - at three that we know of. Sounds like the owner may have stepped up the enforcement or more signs
    It has been posted for maybe 35 years, ever since the trailhead was moved from there, but the quality of the signs varies

    I have been with a group that parked alongside the road further down away from any houses, the roadside was not posted for No Parking

    I can remember when you could spend the night at Hilda's?? and hike from there for less than what Fritz charges to park :-(

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by B the Hiker View Post
    So does this mean we are supposed to park at the Seven Dwarfs and then bushwhack in from there? Or is there a trail leaving from the motel?

    Clearly the problem isn't the parking, it's the walking on closed property, or did I miss it?

    Sorry for the confusion!

    Brian
    Both of the above (i.e., no parking or walking).

    Apparently there is another bridge across the Little River at the Seven Dwarfs, which would be the route to take now, assuming that this route does not traverse the land owner's property that is posted around the end of the road. I am still unclear who owns the land on which the snow machine trails criss cross between the Little River Road and Haystack Road.

    The land owner (Twin Mountain's fire chief) has made his wishes very clear, as relayed to me by Ed Hawkins, that he does not want folks to park at the end, or the side near the end, of the road, but more important does not want folks trespassing on his land, which includes the rickety bridge near the end of the road.

    Concerning parking on Rt. 3, the state law reads that all wheels of vehicles must be outside the white side line on highways (i.e., may need to park in the ditch in some places), and the USFS definitely does not want vehicles blocking their gates, even in winter.
    Last edited by Dr. Dasypodidae; 12-17-2008 at 11:58 PM. Reason: clarification

  10. #25
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    Its the owners perogative to post his land, most dont as they may lose their right to protection under the NH recreation liability statute, and lose the 10% discount on property taxes given to current use owners who do not post their land. I am not a lawyer but section 3 of the statute copied below may be a good reason for the owner to post the bridge. Note, I do not see where posting the land takes away protection under the statute, but I have heard this multiple times at various meetings I have attended.

    Alternatively, the owner may be worrried about "squatters rights" where allowing the public to use the path through the property may eventually establish a public right.

    Pure speculation on my part is that the area gets abused during the summer as people assume its WMNF land.


    NEW HAMPSHIRE REVISED STATUTES ANNOTATED
    TITLE XVIII: FISH AND GAME
    CHAPTER 212: PROPAGATION OF FISH AND GAME
    SECTION 34: LIABILITY OF LANDOWNERS (DUTY OF CARE)


    � 212:34. Duty of Care

    I. An owner, lessee or occupant of premises owes no duty of care to keep such premises safe for entry or use by others for hunting, fishing, trapping, camping, water sports, winter sports or OHRVs as defined in RSA 215-A, hiking, sightseeing, or removal of fuelwood, or to give any warning of hazardous conditions, uses of, structures, or activities on such premises to persons entering for such purposes, except as provided in paragraph III hereof.

    II. An owner, lessee or occupant of premises who gives permission to another to hunt, fish, trap, camp, hike, use OHRVs as defined in RSA 215-A, sightsee upon, or remove fuelwood from, such premises, or use said premises for water sports, or winter sports does not thereby:

    (a) Extend any assurance that the premises are safe for such purpose, or

    (b) Constitute the person to whom permission has been granted the legal status of an invitee to whom a duty of care is owed, or

    (c) Assume responsibility for or incur liability for an injury to person or property caused by any act of such person to whom permission has been granted except as provided in paragraph III hereof.

    III. This section does not limit the liability which otherwise exists:

    (a) For wilful or malicious failure to guard or warn against a dangerous condition, use, structure or activity; or

    (b) For injury suffered in any case where permission to hunt, fish, trap, camp, hike, use for water sports, winter sports or use of OHRVs as defined in RSA 215-A, sightsee, or remove fuelwood was granted for a consideration other than the consideration, if any, paid to said landowner by the state; or

    (c) The injury caused by acts of persons to whom permission to hunt, fish, trap, camp, hike, use for water sports, winter sports or use of OHRVs as defined in RSA 215- A, sightsee, or remove fuelwood was granted, to third persons as to whom the person granting permission, or the owner, lessee or occupant of the premises, owed a duty to keep the premises safe or to warn of danger.

    HISTORY: SOURCE. 1961, 201:1. 1969, 77:1-3. 1973, 560:4. 1977, 208:1. 1981, 146:5, VI, eff. Jan. 1, 1982; 538:7, 13, eff. June 30, 1981.

  11. #26
    Senior Member nartreb's Avatar
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    Posting is governed by common law, meaning a set of unwritten traditions.

    A very good discussion (including references to those statutes which apply) is at NH F&G:

    http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunt...unter_FAQs.htm

    Recreational use statutes protect landowners who give permission for others to make recreational use of their land. Tort law traditionally recognizes various classes of people: invitees, licensees, and trespassers. Landowners can be held liable for certain hazards that harm anybody (even trespassers) on their land, but landowners have extra duty to protect the people they invite onto their land or allow to use it. The recreational use statutes make clear that recreational users who enter under a general open-access policy don't fall into the most protected class. By posting a sign, you're removing permission for others to enter, converting them to trespassers. That would make the recreational-use statute moot, I think, but check with a lawyer: over the years in some states the difference between an invitee and trespasser has shrunk to almost nothing, so it's possible the specific landowner protections of this recreational use statute might be better (for the landlord) than classification as a trespasser.

  12. #27
    Senior Member RoySwkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dasypodidae View Post
    The land owner (Twin Mountain's fire chief) has made his wishes very clear, as relayed to me by Ed Hawkins, that he does not want folks to park at the end, or the side near the end, of the road, but more important does not want folks trespassing on his land, which includes the rickety bridge near the end of the road.
    I would say that the land owner certainly has the right to prohibit use of his land, note however that this was once the route of the trail before Haystack Road was built and users may have some rights. The bridge is newer than that and presumably can be posted.

    As for parking on the side of the road, I would be more interested in what the police chief says :-)

  13. #28
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Thanks guys! I was thinking I was stay at 7D's but since the rooms are closed, I'll stay elsewhere & drive there in the AM. $6 seems reasonable & a bite to eat is nice too.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Jim lombard's Avatar
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    Franz is great, get there early if it is a heavy snow year because spaces are pretty limited. He even offered to pick us up at the trailhead that evening if we paid extra You go down the road a little from where you park and take a right at a stone post over a bridge and follow the snowmobile trail and then head off to the left on Haystack rd to get to the trailhead.
    But those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles.

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  15. #30
    Senior Member yardsale's Avatar
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    Also remember that Franz has farm animals and DOES NOTwant dogs running around off leash. All we need is for him to close off that access as well.

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