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Thread: Trail Bandit Ossipee Mountains (NH) Map - 1st Edition (2009)

  1. #31
    Senior Member Papa Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amicus View Post
    I ... think of "Kearsarge No." as "Pequawket," although I'm less vehement than some about that.
    ...
    A while back I found a US Government report from 1877 which bears on the use of the name "Kearsarge North". Rather than hijacking this thread, I started an new one.

    What's in a name: Kearsarge North

    Enjoy.
    Pb

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  2. #32
    Senior Member Trail Bandit's Avatar
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    Hi Papa Bear. Your discussion about trying to avoid the Keasarge problem when making a map to show the Black Snout name for two summits in the Ossipee range is a valid point. I don't know how the hill on the south shoulder of Mt. Shaw, ever came to be called Black Snout, but a lot of people have used it to name the hill for a long time. The summit to the north ihas been so named for a long time on USGS maps. An earlier suggestion was to use different type fonts to clarify the distinction but I think that would be lost on people. So far, I think the best solution is to stick with the Black Snout (N) and Black Snout (S).
    There are Bear Hills and Rattle Snake Mountains all over NH.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Papa Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Bandit View Post
    Hi Papa Bear. Your discussion about trying to avoid the Keasarge problem when making a map to show the Black Snout name for two summits in the Ossipee range is a valid point. I don't know how the hill on the south shoulder of Mt. Shaw, ever came to be called Black Snout, but a lot of people have used it to name the hill for a long time. The summit to the north ihas been so named for a long time on USGS maps. An earlier suggestion was to use different type fonts to clarify the distinction but I think that would be lost on people. So far, I think the best solution is to stick with the Black Snout (N) and Black Snout (S).
    There are Bear Hills and Rattle Snake Mountains all over NH.
    Yeah it's too bad they're both in the Ossipees. I'm just worrying that those "(N)"s and "(S)"s will become part of the names. I like them just the way they are, Black Snout and Black Snout. Or maybe take the "Mtn." off the one south of Shaw and call it Black Snout knob.

    Maybe a footnote if you think folks will start climbing the wrong peak. The AMC Southern NH Trail Guide just says "This knob is often referred to as Black Snout but is not the peak labeled Black Snout Mtn. on maps". So maybe a footnote such as that.
    Pb

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Bear View Post
    Yeah it's too bad they're both in the Ossipees. I'm just worrying that those "(N)"s and "(S)"s will become part of the names. I like them just the way they are, Black Snout and Black Snout. Or maybe take the "Mtn." off the one south of Shaw and call it Black Snout knob.

    Maybe a footnote if you think folks will start climbing the wrong peak. The AMC Southern NH Trail Guide just says "This knob is often referred to as Black Snout but is not the peak labeled Black Snout Mtn. on maps". So maybe a footnote such as that.
    Of course, simply calling it Black Snoot fixes all said problems, but I digress

  5. #35
    Senior Member Trail Bandit's Avatar
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    Hi to all again, but with a different question. I was thinking of drawing a grid of lines on the map, every minute of angle of latitude and longitude. This would allow GPS users to easily determine the coordinates (using a piece of graph paper or a ruler) of anyplace they wanted to go to, fairly easily. The other side of the coin is theat the more stuff you show on a map, the more congested it gets. People could always draw their own lines from the marks on the edge of the map. Also, I should probably also put a couple of arrows showing which is true north and magnetic north so people can easily line up the map with their compass. Just saying that the magnetic declination is
    15 Deg. 20 Min. west may not convey the picture to everybody. Any thoughts?
    Using the suggested Black Snoot seems to add another level of confusion unless you can get everybody else to sign on, which won't happen.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Trail Bandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Bear View Post

    Maybe a footnote if you think folks will start climbing the wrong peak. The AMC Southern NH Trail Guide just says "This knob is often referred to as Black Snout but is not the peak labeled Black Snout Mtn. on maps". So maybe a footnote such as that.
    Hi again Papa Bear. I was not planning to do trail or any other descriptions for this first edition. The LRCT is comming out with a new map this year and their previous maps have had good trail descriptions. I am sort of trying to fill in the big blank that lies outside of their property. There is a lot of great wandering to be done out there.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Papa Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Bandit View Post
    Hi again Papa Bear. I was not planning to do trail or any other descriptions for this first edition. The LRCT is coming out with a new map this year and their previous maps have had good trail descriptions. I am sort of trying to fill in the big blank that lies outside of their property. There is a lot of great wandering to be done out there.
    I think what you are doing is the right thing at the right time and most everyone will be very grateful. Consider this issue a minor nit-pick.

    Now ... I still don't know how I'm ever going to do a complete circular traverse of the entire Ossipee ring dike.
    Pb

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  8. #38
    Senior Member sardog1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Bandit View Post
    Hi to all again, but with a different question. I was thinking of drawing a grid of lines on the map, every minute of angle of latitude and longitude. This would allow GPS users to easily determine the coordinates (using a piece of graph paper or a ruler) of anyplace they wanted to go to, fairly easily. The other side of the coin is theat the more stuff you show on a map, the more congested it gets. People could always draw their own lines from the marks on the edge of the map. Also, I should probably also put a couple of arrows showing which is true north and magnetic north so people can easily line up the map with their compass. Just saying that the magnetic declination is
    15 Deg. 20 Min. west may not convey the picture to everybody. Any thoughts?
    Please consider using a UTM grid instead of lat/on; it is much more useful for land navigation.

    A declination diagram is a good idea, especially if you're easy-going like me on the use of such a diagram. (Put the number on the map as well, for Protractor Boy. )
    sardog1

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    men kom her up og kjenn eit annat Liv!
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    og Drykk og Tørste og det heile, som
    er Liv og Helse i ein Hovedsum."

    -- Aasmund O. Vinje, "Til Fjells!"

  9. #39
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sardog1 View Post
    Please consider using a UTM grid instead of lat/on; it is much more useful for land navigation.
    Not everyone prefers or even uses UTM for land navigation. (Me, for one--a lat-lon grid would be far more useful to me.) Please at least keep the lat-lon numbers along the borders.

    One approach would be to follow the conventions used on the most recent 24/25K USGS topos. (Which seem to be both UTM and lat-lon marks and labels on the borders and a UTM grid.)

    Another approach would be to print both grids in different colors.

    Doug

  10. #40
    Senior Member Trail Bandit's Avatar
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    Thank you all for the input on the grid question. Let's see, we have the lat lon grid, the UTM grid, and for the compass users we can have a magnetic based grid (there will need to be a correction table as the damn pole keeps moving). My take on a map is that it should be a representation of what is on the ground. I am talking map VS trail guide, this map isn't going to have the nice trail descriptions provided by the LRCT. Search as you may, you won't find any grid lines on the ground in the Ossipees. I did find a line painted across a road and a big sign that told me I was on the Equator, in one of my travels. I don't like the UTM grid because the lines aren't running N,S, E, and W so I will add a fine black line grid for the Latitude and longitude. I will use the WGS84 horizontal datum, which is the most common default for the GPS users. This said, if there are any more strong opinions on this topic, I will consider them. This map is for you.

  11. #41
    Senior Member sardog1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Bandit View Post
    I don't like the UTM grid because the lines aren't running N,S, E, and W so I will add a fine black line grid for the Latitude and longitude. I will use the WGS84 horizontal datum, which is the most common default for the GPS users. This said, if there are any more strong opinions on this topic, I will consider them. This map is for you.
    At the scale of your map and our latitude, the UTM grid is square and lined up N/S, E/W (in fact more square than the lat/lon, which is the raison d'etre for the UTM.) See Selecting A Geographic Coordinate System on MapTools.com.

    I suspect that WGS 84 is not the datum used for your map references originally. (USGS topo quads are usually NAD 1927, sometimes NAD 1983.) Although WGS84 is the same as NAD 83 in practice for foot travel, you should state and use the actual datum used for the map originally, IMO.
    sardog1

    "Å! kjære Bymann gakk ei stjur og stiv,
    men kom her up og kjenn eit annat Liv!
    kom hit, kom hit, og ver ei daud og lat!
    kom kjenn, hot d'er, som heiter Svevn og Mat,
    og Drykk og Tørste og det heile, som
    er Liv og Helse i ein Hovedsum."

    -- Aasmund O. Vinje, "Til Fjells!"

  12. #42
    Senior Member RoySwkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocket21 View Post
    Of course, simply calling it Black Snoot fixes all said problems, but I digress
    Not at all, unless you get the AMC guide to use that name it will just add more confusion, just like another peak not so far away from here

    Compass users (if there are still any) will like magnetic N lines, and the pole won't vary that much during the next few years after which you or somebody else will issue an updated map. I'm not sure there's any purpose in a lat/long grid as I think grid users prefer UTM. Of course both magnetic N lines and UTM grid would make a lot of clutter, I suppose you could add them as layers and post it but I'll bet people won't like it.

    I know more colors cost more $$ so I'm not sure how many you need.

  13. #43
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoySwkr View Post
    Compass users (if there are still any) will like magnetic N lines,
    Again, this is a matter of user preference. Some of us navigate in true and use compasses with adjustable declination.

    Doug

  14. #44
    Senior Member Trail Bandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sardog1 View Post
    At the scale of your map and our latitude, the UTM grid is square and lined up N/S, E/W (in fact more square than the lat/lon, which is the raison d'etre for the UTM.) See Selecting A Geographic Coordinate System on MapTools.com.

    I suspect that WGS 84 is not the datum used for your map references originally. (USGS topo quads are usually NAD 1927, sometimes NAD 1983.) Although WGS84 is the same as NAD 83 in practice for foot travel, you should state and use the actual datum used for the map originally, IMO.
    Hi Sardog1, The data that I have used to prepare this map came from a number of sources that were in different projections and used different projections. I am putting the map in the horizontal datum WGS 84 as that is what the GPS data was collected in. The elevation contours were only available easily as derived from a digital elevation model. I have manually corrected the contours around hill tops and along streams, where there were obvious errors. The spot elevations for summits are from the old USGS maps. I also have high resolution aerial ortho photos that came in State Plane Coordinates. All the data sources seem to be consistant when corrected for the different projections. I placed the 71D. 16M. longitude line vertical for true north. This of course means that the lines at the right and left tilt in a little bit. I used straight lines for all the longitude lines which is good enough for this effort. All the roads, trails, dashed lines, etc were mapped with my Garmin GPS. Everything is quite accurate and a hiker won't notice any errors. A surveyor might complain. I will stick with my Lat/Lon format as I am comfortable with it. It is what I use in my airplane.

  15. #45
    Senior Member Trail Bandit's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=RoySwkr;259585]Not at all, unless you get the AMC guide to use that name it will just add more confusion, just like another peak not so far away from here

    Compass users (if there are still any) will like magnetic N lines, and the pole won't vary that much during the next few years after which you or somebody else will issue an updated map. I'm not sure there's any purpose in a lat/long grid as I think grid users prefer UTM. Of course both magnetic N lines and UTM grid would make a lot of clutter, I suppose you could add them as layers and post it but I'll bet people won't like it.

    I know more colors cost more $$ so I'm not sure how many you need

    Hi Roy, The purpose for providing the Lat/Lon grid is so that you can pick out something on the map you want to go to, interpolate the position from the lines, and load the position into your GPS. I realize the same can be done with the UTM grid system. I like having a line (Longitude) that points to true north. The central longitudeline on my map points to true north.
    I am printing the map using a 5 color press (C,M,Y,K and a spot color for the contour lines). Although this is not how the USGS does it, I have had good luck in the past. With this approach, I can have as many colors as I want at no extra cost.

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