reason to keep dogs in tent at night

Poor Alex! I arrived at the Edmund's Path TH just as a young couple from NY was emerging with their dog. He was sleeping outside the tent and decided to rumble with porky. By the time they made it to the nearest road, Alex had already had these quills in his nose, tongue, gums and leg for 12 hours. He could not drink or eat. This can actually be fatal if not treated soon enough. We had a cell signal and we found a vet who agreed to meet us at her hospital in Whitefeild. I gave them all a lift and Alex was treated, but they were very lucky that it worked out this way.




happy trails

That poor little guy.

You are right of course that without proper treatment the little guy would probably die. Just also mention to NOT try to pull them out or cut them off at the skin line which sounds reasonable but is not the way to deal with that.

Kudos to you for helping him get the help he needs. Hopefully he'll wind up OK.

Keith

SAR-EMT40 said:

That poor little guy.

You are right of course that without proper treatment the little guy would probably die. Just also mention to NOT try to pull them out or cut them off at the skin line which sounds reasonable but is not the way to deal with that.

Kudos to you for helping him get the help he needs. Hopefully he'll wind up OK.

Keith

Click to expand...

As I understand it and have done it recently: you can rotate them out. It is very difficult to do with bare fingers, but it can be done. I was amazed at how sharp the quill point was and the roughness of the sides of the point.

But yes, I agree the dog should be in the tent at night.

Paradox said:

As I understand it and have done it recently: you can rotate them out. It is very difficult to do with bare fingers, but it can be done. I was amazed at how sharp the quill point was and the roughness of the sides of the point.

But yes, I agree the dog should be in the tent at night.

Click to expand...

This works and doesn't leave any remnants under the skin? Can/Do you use a pair of pliers? Is this the way a vet does it? I'm asking just in case a vet wasn't nearby.

The quills I have seen are incredible little pieces of work. Really remarkable in thier design. Until I saw some I had no idea of actually how intricate they were.

Keith

SAR-EMT40 said:

This works and doesn't leave any remnants under the skin? Can/Do you use a pair of pliers? Is this the way a vet does it? I'm asking just in case a vet wasn't nearby.

The quills I have seen are incredible little pieces of work. Really remarkable in thier design. Until I saw some I had no idea of actually how intricate they were.

Keith

Click to expand...

I don't know what sort of remnants it may leave, but Zippy does not seem to be suffering any ill effects three weeks after the encounter. She did get them all on the top/front of her forepaws and ankles so it could have been a lot worse.

The quills are a pretty remarkable piece of engineering. The sides of the hard pointy end were pretty rough and the point was surgical sharp, the nonbusiness end is very soft, like a tuft of hair. I now have a pair of substancial forceps in my first aid kit that I hope I never have to use.

Ah, the Schweitzer Trifecta -- friend of moose AND man AND now dog.

I've removed quills with leather gloves slimed with dog blood and saliva. I've removed them with bare fingers slimed with dog blood and saliva. I've removed them with the benefit of forceps, etc., from my first aid kit and a competent assistant to hold the dog. Of the three modes, guess which one is my favorite?

Bring the first aid kit any time the dog is running free. Have in it a small forceps and sharp small scissors or similar cutting instrument. Persuade dog that you're helping. (This is usually the biggest obstacle to the job.) Cut a small part of the end facing you -- do not cut close to the entry point. Cutting will relieve some pressure that holds the quill in place. (The quill has evolved that way, using the incoming blood and fluids to swell itself.) Use the forceps to remove to the extent possible. Some will remain, even if you "know" that you got them all. Get to the vet ASAP, where more will be removed. Some might still remain after that -- watch for a week or more for signs (swelling, heat, scratching) of deeply embedded quills or fragments that are traveling into places in the head where they do not belong. Get back to the vet as needed.

One of my dogs never learned and twice went back for a second mouthful on a porky. His successor has learned very well without getting a mouthful. I know where to find porkies and how to use them for aversive conditioning. This dog is the only one that I've had that I consider pretty much porky-proof. But I carry the kit.

Did the method Sardog mentioned on our 120 plus pound huskie-shepard cross. Took out about half of them, the easier ones of course. Had him wrapped up and tied in a floor rug to handle him. After I said okay now we'll take him to the vet. My wife said, Why did we bother and I told her it was two-fold 1) if he gets put to sleep and doesn't remember any coming out he'll go after a porcupine again and 2) less the vet had to do and less of a bill! Depends on if the dog is smart enough to learn!

Dave Bear said:

Did the method Sardog mentioned on our 120 plus pound huskie-shepard cross. Took out about half of them, the easier ones of course. Had him wrapped up and tied in a floor rug to handle him. After I said okay now we'll take him to the vet. My wife said, Why did we bother and I told her it was two-fold 1) if he gets put to sleep and doesn't remember any coming out he'll go after a porcupine again and 2) less the vet had to do and less of a bill! Depends on if the dog is smart enough to learn!

Click to expand...

I think there are 2 kinds of dog here, not necessarily dumb ones. One is hurt and knows not to try again. The other gets angry that he was hurt and wants revenge.

I lead a catskill hike and a dog got several quills. A woman I know went into quick action and had us hold the dog. She yanked them out very quickly with pliers. She seemed to know what she was doing, had experience. She said the quicker the better. The dog was fine after that.

sardog1 said:

Cut a small part of the end facing you -- do not cut close to the entry point. Cutting will relieve some pressure that holds the quill in place. (The quill has evolved that way, using the incoming blood and fluids to swell itself.)

Click to expand...

Oh crap! I remember reading that now. The quills are hollow. They swell even making them more difficult to remove. Cutting them so you open the void relieves some of that swelling.

Thanks for reminding me about that sardog. I totally forgot. Great advice.

And Kelly clamps. Have them in my kit. And you are right they are probably the best choice. Like the saying says: a thousand and one uses.

Keith

I've dequilled dogs 3x on 'whacks. 2x with my dog, Bookah and once with a companion's dog. They got wrecked - quills everywhere...gums, lips, nose, nostrils, tongue, palate, face, chest, paws.
Laid them down, used my left forearm to keep them there, left hand over their eyes so they can't see the mulitpliers coming, and then grab as many quills as possible as close to where they go in and give a pull. A little bloody but with gentle words and encouragement, the dogs were up and back to the hikes 15 min later.

I carry a tiny multipliers with a needlenose pliers for just this situation as my dog has come close to grabbing 3 more porkies and unfortunately killed a baby porcupine this April

Kelly Clamps (forceps)

http://www.allheart.com/pm501.html

Paradox said:

Kelly Clamps (forceps)

http://www.allheart.com/pm501.html

Click to expand...

hey, i keep some of those in my tackle box for fishin'!

Decades ago my Springer Spaniel buddy tangled with a porcupine while we were hunting ruffed grouse. Luckily, he trusted me, and so I was able to lie across him to hold him still and remove most of the quills with a good pair of small slip-joint pliers carried for exactly that purpose. A pair of stout leather work gloves helped. A visit to the vet finished up the job.

I agree that it probably is best to have your pooch sleep in the tent with you, to prevent exactly this kind of thing from happening.

G.

Paradox said:

As I understand it and have done it recently: you can rotate them out. It is very difficult to do with bare fingers, but it can be done. I was amazed at how sharp the quill point was and the roughness of the sides of the point.

But yes, I agree the dog should be in the tent at night.

Click to expand...

I have removed them with my bare hands, you need a steady hand and a trusting dog....

When Genie got quilled in the Catskills a couple of years ago, I had no trouble at all getting them out with pliers, though Pat had to keep her in a headlock as she was objecting for some reason. Maybe the quills didn't go in as deep as they might have? I did have to give a tug to get out the ones that were deeper in the soft tissue of her nose (ouch!). Two weeks later we found one festering in her paw, though.

Porcupine vs car

SAR-EMT40 said:

The quills I have seen are incredible little pieces of work. Really remarkable in thier design. Until I saw some I had no idea of actually how intricate they were.

Click to expand...

So I can't touch the porcupine-dog stories but...

I was driving through the Northeast Kingdom one night, hours into the drive and less than 20 minutes from the destination. I crested a hill and heard a thu-bump! under the car. Looked in the rear view mirror and saw a shape by the side of the road - I had hit a porcupine. Poor thing.

Next morning I inspected the car, and found quills embedded in the tires. I started carefully pulling them out and disposing of them, and listening for the telltale hissing. But when I looked under the car and found quills in the brake line, I had had enough. I (carefully!) drove to the nearest service station, where the guy put the car on the lift, pulled the quills, and wouldn't take my money. Ah, Vermont.

Oh yes: my father helped me with the tires, and he wasn't as careful as I was. I had to pull a few from his shins

20 years later, that hill I crested it is still known in my family as Porcupine Hill.

A little off-topic , but I know for sure that porky quills and Thermarests don't do well together either ....

Dave

Taz and the porcupine

Years ago my ex-wife had a Jack Russel Terrier named "Taz." Taz liked everything that went on two legs and hated everything that went on four. She was really obnoxious. Although I have had bigger house cats, Taz thought she was the size of a Saint Bernard. She had that air of indomitable superiority that seems to be a mark of the breed. She used to attack my dog Buck who was a black lab, German Shepard mutt that weighed 110 pounds. Whenever he came into a room where my ex-wife was sitting Taz would attack him. Buck would give a long-suffering sigh and slowly lower his massive head, pinning Taz to the floor. Even pinned, she continued to snarl and try to attack until my ex pulled her out.

When I was working on my Catskill 3500 peaks, I took my wife, my son, and Taz along one Sunday. We got as far as the trail register and while I was signing us in, Taz found a porcupine and attacked it. And attacked. And attacked. The porcupine was acting like "What the f@ck? This dog is crazy" and lumbered off to a small tree and climbed the trunk with Taz still snapping at it. Up the trunk it went and then out along a small branch. Reaching the end of the branch it apparently thought that Taz had had time to reflect on the error of her ways and it dropped back to the ground whereupon Taz immediately attacked it again.

Needless to say, that was the end of the hike. Taz had over 200 quills in her including one THROUGH her tongue and one deep in her throat. She looked like a pin cushion or an old man with long whiskers. I cut a lot of the quills in half with my Swiss army knife (they're hollow and when you cut them they deflate a little making them easier to pull out) but I told my wife, "There's no way I can get the ones through her tongue and in her throat out. We need to find a vet."

Finding a vet in the Hudson Valley on a Sunday morning proved to be a bit of a challenge. I finally found one coming out of her clinic but she was just there to feed and check on the animals. When she saw Taz she agreed to help but said, "I'm going to have to use anesthesia and my assistant isn't here." I replied, "Well I've got a PhD in biology, can I be your assistant?"

That's how I got to see behind the curtain. Many vets - at least back then - used barbiturate anesthetics such as Nembutal. The problem with barbiturates is that they clear slowly and even with proper dosages, some animals die. And that's why vets tend to anesthetize on the "light" side. Nobody would understand if they brought "fluffy" into be spayed and the vet said "sorry the cat died."

They don't go so light that the animals feel anything but it does make them very responsive to stimuli. When the vet put the hemostat on the quill through Taz's tongue and pulled, Taz stood right up on the table. But as soon as it was out, she laid back down and closed her eyes.

I never took Taz hiking again. I don't want to be bringing a dog into the woods that is going to attack wildlife. It was too bad: when she was younger she hiked with me off leash a lot and never showed that behavior. But somewhere along the line she turned into the Charles Manson of dogs. We once took her to see her mother and two of her litter mates. Taz attacked them.

- MonadnockVol (aka Steve, Catskill 3500 Club #959)

With time, quills work deeper into the skin, muscle, etc. , so getting as many out as quickly as possible is important. Added to that the swelling that takes place with a foreign object, makes that removal even more urgent.

I have a pair of plyers with a bent tip that I call my "quill removers." Sometimes I would wrestle with my dog and do the job myself, other times I'd do what I could, then go to the vet for a final assist. (I think an unspotted quill worked its way into the brain of one of my dogs and she died of a massive seizure, but I can't be sure of that.)

If you take your dog with quills into your car, be aware that sometimes the quills come out on their own and you might not notice that right away. Not until you or a friend is sitting in that spot sometime later and discovers a sharp stinging feeling. (That happened to my daughter when she was still in diapers, so I have some personal experience!)

una_dogger said:

I have removed them with my bare hands, you need a steady hand and a trusting dog....

Click to expand...

Duffy was a master at getting into Porky disputes. I learned quickly that I couldn't get them all out with my bare fingers, so I always carry a small pair of pliers in my pack. Duffy would let me work inside is mouth with no objection. Airedales are the most stoic dogs I've ever seen.

One reason I made sure I had pliers was that I saw a few disappear in him while I was working on him, so working quickly is essential.

I have to keep Lauky on a leash, so I haven't had that problem with him. I don't think he would let me work inside his mouth the same way Duffy did.

By the way, the dog in the picture didn't have a third of the quills I've seen on Duffy.