The Ideal Canister

I've found many a trail register that was either soggy, unreadable or both. I think I have come up with an ideal design. It has a breather/drain hole in the bottom so that condensation can leak out and a hardward cloth that holds the register off the bottom so that it does not sit in water. It should be at least 6 feet of the ground so that snow does not cover it. I thought about putting silica gel packets in the bottom, but worry that someone might eat them.



Any additional thoughts or observations.

Just a few thoughts:

How about a (loosely) threaded top cap?

Make sure the PVC is UV resistant.

Is black better than white? The extra solar heat gain may help to
disperse moisture. (Black may also be more UV resistant.)

Can the PVC withstand a temp range of -40F -- 150F? (Are there grades which will?)

Nylon is damaged by UV--dacron line is better. Black line may also be better than white. (The line also needs to be loose so it doesn't cut into the tree.)

Perhaps the line should go through eyelets rather than just being tied around the canister. (Stainless steel hose clamps can go around the canister as a means of attachment.)

Silica gel wouldn't help--it would just saturate.

Day-night thermal cycling causes a net inward pumping of water (this is a problem with plastic insulated cable). Hopefully the drain hole will allow enough air circulation to disperse this moisture.


Maybe this is a use for discarded polycarbonate Nalgene bottles. Just drill a drain hole and put a spacer in the bottom...

Doug

I'm no expert on PVC pipe, but this is what I've learned over the past few years from building a house and other structures:

- black drain pipe is not PVC; rather, it's ABS. Good stuff, but not quite as durable as PVC.

- the white PVC pipe is used for drains as well as supplying potable water (at least in some jurisdictions), but I don't think it's rated for exterior, exposed applications. Copper or galvanized pipe is used for exposed exterior supply applications.

- PVC pipe is also used as electrical conduit and is sold as Schedule 40 or Schedule 80. Sch 80 has a much thicker wall, and is used for exterior applications where it may be exposed to UV rays. However, Sch 80 has the same overall diameter, so Sch 40 fittings can be glued/welded to Sch 80 pipe.

- You can improve the UV resistance of PVC pipe by painting it.

Am not a licensed general contractor nor electrician, but have learned the above in order to pass building inspections in CA.

I think the perfect design is being implemented in certain areas already.
Don’t know who or where though.

Paradox said:

I've found many a trail register that was either soggy, unreadable or both. I think I have come up with an ideal design. It has a breather/drain hole in the bottom so that condensation can leak out and a hardward cloth that holds the register off the bottom so that it does not sit in water. It should be at least 6 feet of the ground so that snow does not cover it.

Any additional thoughts or observations.

Click to expand...

One day when I made several canisters for the CMC, I made one of similar design which I placed in NE. The CMC design does use a threaded cap to open, and the other end has an eyebolt so a steel cable can be used to attach it. I used insulated copper wire to hang it from a tree branch with the thought that it would be less likely to freeze in than if attached with clamps and there was no damage to the tree. I also drilled a hole in the bottom, but was told that the register was wet anyway.

Geocachers have similar issues which are often solved by using waterproof paper for logs. Now that instead of being cheapskates who drive old cars and camp in log yards, the new generation peakbaggers who have 4wd and stay in motels could perhaps afford this.

Craig said:

I think the perfect design is being implemented in certain areas already.
Don’t know who or where though.

Click to expand...

I saw a similar one on E Long, but couldn't get it open as I didn't have 1" wrench and threads were too tight - you can get a better grip on the screw caps

I like the canister design that Craig's picture shows, with a bottom opening. The only caveat is that the screw bottom can be very difficult to open in winter - a slide-on top can at least be pounded and banged until it pops off. But the sealed top does make for the most protection for the interior, as well as ensuring that the bottom is always dry (though I would combine it with a drain hole, not all do, and with 'dox's approach of having a "seat" for the contents)

The zip-loc bag is always the final line of defense and quite necessary, as ambient humidity can do a number on a register notebook even if the inside of the canister is otherwise dry.

Canister Design

The canister on Vose Spur has a hole in the bottom and is of similar design to what you have sketched. It did not have a stand-off screen on the bottom and the contents were soaked. That said:

CPVC (chlorinated PVC) is grey so it would blend into the woods better (or stand out in snow) and would get hotter in sun, which might help dry out the interior. It's designed for exposed locations (it's used as electrical conduit outside). The threaded bottom shown by Craig seems good, but grit in the threads can make the thing unopenable by hand, although that is true of a weld-style end cap too.

6' off the ground is fine in snow, but how does a 5 foot hiker reach up and in to a 12" high/deep canister? My guess is that for most of the year (except maybe Jan-April) the snow is less than 5' deep...an antenna or flag might be a better solution.

The stand-off screen could be a 2"cap sitting at the bottom of the 3" pipe. This would be cheap and would allow water to drain while holding up the "goods" inside.

If we didn't put stuffed animals into the canisters things would be drier (like Vose Spur Canister in June)

These canisters have a small hole drilled in the bottom screw on cap for seepage. Additionally, the square threaded cap has been fitted with a (nail?) for ease of turning in cold weather with gloves.

I agree the attachment to the tree may not optimal, but there was no other way to booby trap the setup for those attempting to remove it.

The standoff screen is a good idea, as is waterproof paper. I'll probably start carrying up a waterproof notebook when I get back to bushwhacking next spring.

I wonder if a couple of horizontal vent holes directly underneath the cap might be useful. They shouldn't let much moisture in and would certainly improve circulation.

DougPaul said:

Just a few thoughts:
Is black better than white? The extra solar heat gain may help to
disperse moisture. (Black may also be more UV resistant.)

Nylon is damaged by UV--dacron line is better. Black line may also be better than white. (The line also needs to be loose so it doesn't cut into the tree.)

Perhaps the line should go through eyelets rather than just being tied around the canister. (Stainless steel hose clamps can go around the canister as a means of attachment.)

Silica gel wouldn't help--it would just saturate.

Day-night thermal cycling causes a net inward pumping of water (this is a problem with plastic insulated cable). Hopefully the drain hole will allow enough air circulation to disperse this moisture.

Maybe this is a use for discarded polycarbonate Nalgene bottles. Just drill a drain hole and put a spacer in the bottom...

Doug

Click to expand...

mahony said:

CPVC (chlorinated PVC) is grey so it would blend into the woods better (or stand out in snow) and would get hotter in sun, which might help dry out the interior. It's designed for exposed locations (it's used as electrical conduit outside). The threaded bottom shown by Craig seems good, but grit in the threads can make the thing unopenable by hand, although that is true of a weld-style end cap too.

6' off the ground is fine in snow, but how does a 5 foot hiker reach up and in to a 12" high/deep canister? My guess is that for most of the year (except maybe Jan-April) the snow is less than 5' deep...an antenna or flag might be a better solution.

The stand-off screen could be a 2"cap sitting at the bottom of the 3" pipe. This would be cheap and would allow water to drain while holding up the "goods" inside.

Click to expand...

MichaelJ said:

... with a bottom opening. The only caveat is that the screw bottom can be very difficult to open in winter

The zip-loc bag is always the final line of defense and quite necessary, as ambient humidity can do a number on a register notebook even if the inside of the canister is otherwise dry.

Click to expand...

jniehof said:

I wonder if a couple of horizontal vent holes directly underneath the cap might be useful. They shouldn't let much moisture in and would certainly improve circulation.

Click to expand...

Some great ideas and observations, thank you. I have found that 3' PVC end caps cost about $3.70(X2 at Lowes)) and the cheapest waterproof notebooks cost about $2.50 (Amazon.com). So I am thinking that the discarded "Nalgene-Like" Polycarbonate bottles are a great option. I have never had a problem unscrewing my Nalgenes even in -20 degree temperatures. A breather hole in the cap with a cork or wooden block screwed into the cap as a standoff might be the cheapest option. Paint it a dark non-offensive color or cover it with camo colored duck tape and mount it upside down with dacron line. IMHO the dacron line is better than the stainless steel mounting hardware because it is cheaper, doesn't harm the tree, and you can tip the canister for better access.

The notebooks should be waterproof and in a ziplock bag.

It really needs to be about 6' off the ground. I'm sure the little people will deal with it somehow.

i think you'll find that the architect of the "current design" PVC canister that's appearing on some peaks has now implemented a perpendicular screw set in the square on the cap to allow you to get the torque to open it--think can be seen in one pictured a previous post

and sure, we'll talk about Chandler when i get back from my little trip

jim

PVC? Ugh! I'm old school, I prefer one of Dennis C's old reliable peanut butter jars!

dms said:

PVC? Ugh! I'm old school, I prefer one of Dennis C's old reliable peanut butter jars!

Click to expand...

The peanut butter jars and the like, is what prompted this thread. The ones I have seen have soaking wet registers. Moisture from condensation gets in and cannot get out.

Paradox said:

the cheapest waterproof notebooks cost about $2.50

Click to expand...

You don't need to leave a whole notebook in the register unless it's very high-traffic, they seem to vanish long before that :-(

I am thinking that the discarded "Nalgene-Like" Polycarbonate bottles are a great option.

Click to expand...

This was mentioned in the unsafe bottle note but I don't know anybody who actually tried it and how well they hold up in sunlight, etc. I have one painted and one unpainted that I will put out sometime.

IMHO the dacron line is better than the stainless steel mounting hardware because it is cheaper, doesn't harm the tree, and you can tip the canister for better access.

Click to expand...

As mentioned those bolted to tree are less susceptible to casual theft but organized canister bandits will soon carry the necessary tools. I used insulated copper electric wire instead of cord as less likely to be chewed by animals.

Doh! How about WOOD! Seems to me a bird house type made from PTL and a copper foil roof would last forever. Condensation would be reduced and I have enough pressure treated lumber in my shop to make 50 of them. Anybody have any .003" copper foil sitting around?

Paradox said:

Anybody have any .003" copper foil sitting around?

Click to expand...

You can get it at a lumber yard. Upscale McMansions use it for roof flashing.

Paradox said:

Doh! How about WOOD! Seems to me a bird house type made from PTL and a copper foil roof would last forever. Condensation would be reduced and I have enough pressure treated lumber in my shop to make 50 of them. Anybody have any .003" copper foil sitting around?

Click to expand...

The register boxes on the MA AT are made of wood with a hinged cover. The register books are kept in ziplock bags.

Picture with residents: http://mysite.verizon.net/dbpwebjunk/ma-at-day/wack-a-mouse8.gif

Doug

Bigger picture showing more of the box (It has a slanting roof on the top.):

DougPaul said:

The register boxes on the MA AT are made of wood with a hinged cover. The register books are kept in ziplock bags.

Picture with residents: http://mysite.verizon.net/dbpwebjunk/ma-at-day/wack-a-mouse8.gif

Doug

Bigger picture showing more of the box (It has a slanting roof on the top.):

Click to expand...

That's a HOOT!

I think the PTL will keep the critters at bay.