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Thread: Pemi Wilderness Bridge Removal Project

  1. #31
    Senior Member spencer's Avatar
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    I nominate Dr. Wu to go there after the removal and try to ford the river, only to twist an ankle an get dragged under water...















    ...just long enough to make the point!

    I don't actually care if they remove it or not. if I want to go to the other side I'm still going to go. It just might take longer - and who can argue about spending a bit more of our precious time in the backcountry?

  2. #32
    Senior Member SAR-EMT40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_wu002 View Post
    There's still a big difference between a road that 10 trillion people drive on a year and some bridge that a few people -- at most -- walk in a day. Seems like a waste of resources to me, one which will in reality not make that area at all more Wildernessy (nor will it likely contribute to deaths or anything) but will simply serve to annoy the few people it served. Do you really think that removing that bridge is going to significantly enhance the Wilderness character of the area? Or is it just going to frustrate people.

    -Dr. Wu
    I believe your case is made worse if you think that it is rarely used.

    Why spend any resources on such a little used item? If it is in disrepair and it would seem conflict with the directive of wilderness area then to me it makes much more sense to never need to worry about it again and especially to not expend scarce resources on it. Especially when alternatives for the users are so easy.


    Quote Originally Posted by spencer View Post
    It just might take longer - and who can argue about spending a bit more of our precious time in the backcountry?
    My point exactly.


    Keith
    Last edited by SAR-EMT40; 09-15-2009 at 12:25 PM.
    "The real work of men was hunting meat. The invention of agriculture was a giant step in the wrong direction, leading to serfdom, cities, and empire. From a race of hunters, artists, warriors, and tamers of horses, we degraded ourselves to what we are now: clerks, functionaries, laborers, entertainers, processors of information."- Ed Abbey

  3. #33
    Senior Member SAR-EMT40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spencer View Post
    I nominate Dr. Wu to go there after the removal and try to ford the river, only to twist an ankle an get dragged under water...


    ...just long enough to make the point!

    I don't actually care if they remove it or not. if I want to go to the other side I'm still going to go. It just might take longer - and who can argue about spending a bit more of our precious time in the backcountry?
    And the cool rushing water returning his twisted ankle immediately to its prior untwisted state.
    "The real work of men was hunting meat. The invention of agriculture was a giant step in the wrong direction, leading to serfdom, cities, and empire. From a race of hunters, artists, warriors, and tamers of horses, we degraded ourselves to what we are now: clerks, functionaries, laborers, entertainers, processors of information."- Ed Abbey

  4. #34
    Senior Member dr_wu002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAR-EMT40 View Post
    And the cool rushing water returning his twisted ankle immediately to its prior untwisted state.
    Doubtful. Spencer knows I'd be nude and covered in bacon grease. So either the ranger would slip trying to pull me out of the water or the piranhas would get me. Or both.

    Save me save me! I'm naked and there are piranhas eating me!

    Come to think about it -- I think Spencer wants to "save" me!!!

    -Dr. Wu
    Last edited by dr_wu002; 09-15-2009 at 12:56 PM.
    To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
    -Thomas Paine

  5. #35
    Senior Member erugs's Avatar
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    Dr. Wu is creative and funny. I wish the people responsible for the Wilderness Bridge Removal Project were, too. While it would be nice to go back to the days when the world was pristine, that is unrealistic. How and why should people care about areas that are protected so much that folks can't be there to appreciate the jewells that these locations are? (Does that last sentence make sense? Should read: Can't go there, why should I care?)
    Last edited by erugs; 09-15-2009 at 02:17 PM.
    Ellen

    Volunteer Maintainer: East Pond Trail

    "Through winter-time we call on spring/And through the spring on summer call/And when abounding hedges ring/Declare that winter's best of all/And after that there's nothing good/Because the spring-time has not come... William Butler Yeats

  6. #36
    Senior Member Stash's Avatar
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    Souvenir bridge parts

    An idea. Sell the bridge parts as souvenirs. Proceeds go to trail maintenance. Key is you have to retrieve your own parts and use a primitive (walking) method of retrieval. Self-contained bridge removal at no added cost.
    Stash

    What matters is what I do. Not what they do.

    Hiking Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/35709829@N08/

  7. #37
    Senior Member giggy's Avatar
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    I just find it all laughable his thing to create the illusion of wilderness when you have a road with major traffic less than 10 miles in either direction
    Last edited by giggy; 09-15-2009 at 02:14 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_wu002 View Post
    -- at least I can say that I haven't paid the WMNF fees at any TH in more than 4 years now and frankly don't intend to start after this either.

    -Dr. Wu
    right on dr. wu!

  9. #39
    Senior Member smitty77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAR-EMT40 View Post
    I'm not sure why I care if they remove them or not. Especially if it frees up funds to be used in other more heavily trafficked areas. I like doing off trail navigation more than trail walking any ways. And anything that reduces the number of people out there means that everyone that is out there gets more of the wilderness experience.
    But does it reduce the number of people? I contend (and did so publicly in a formal reply to the scoping letter) that removal of said bridge will further concentrate use of the wilderness through the Lincoln Woods corridor. I'll grant you, the number of people traveling east-west through the wilderness or entering the area from any place other than Lincoln Woods is likely a small percentage of the yearly visitor count. But on a visit to Lincoln Woods in July of 2008 I was shocked, and in some ways appalled, by the relentless amount of traffic crossing the suspension bridge at LW and heading north towards the Wilderness. One would think that the Forest Service, being the ultimate stewards of the wilderness, would seek to reduce the amount of heavy traffic through one location and promote the dispersion of users to other entry points around the Wilderness. This project does exactly the opposite. A couple of times in her document, Ranger Fuller fully admits the users of the wilderness will have to plan trips accordingly to ensure they are "starting on the side of the river which leads to your intended destination", further implying that all access to the Wilderness is, and should be, through Lincoln Woods.
    East bound and down, loaded up and truckin', we gonna do what 'They' say can't be done.
    We gotta long way to go, and a short time to get there, I'm east bound just watch ole' Bandit run. - Jerry Reed

  10. #40
    Senior Member dr_wu002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smitty77 View Post
    But does it reduce the number of people? I contend (and did so publicly in a formal reply to the scoping letter) that removal of said bridge will further concentrate use of the wilderness through the Lincoln Woods corridor. I'll grant you, the number of people traveling east-west through the wilderness or entering the area from any place other than Lincoln Woods is likely a small percentage of the yearly visitor count. But on a visit to Lincoln Woods in July of 2008 I was shocked, and in some ways appalled, by the relentless amount of traffic crossing the suspension bridge at LW and heading north towards the Wilderness. One would think that the Forest Service, being the ultimate stewards of the wilderness, would seek to reduce the amount of heavy traffic through one location and promote the dispersion of users to other entry points around the Wilderness. This project does exactly the opposite. A couple of times in her document, Ranger Fuller fully admits the users of the wilderness will have to plan trips accordingly to ensure they are "starting on the side of the river which leads to your intended destination", further implying that all access to the Wilderness is, and should be, through Lincoln Woods.
    Most of the people I see walking Lincoln Woods are dog walkers or people going for a 3 mile walk on the old rail road grade. Honestly, what percentage actually even go further than the Bondcliff Junction on any given day? My guess is < 1%.

    -Dr. Wu
    To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
    -Thomas Paine

  11. #41
    Senior Member Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giggy View Post
    I just find it all laughable this thing to create the illusion of wilderness when you have a road with major traffic less than 10 miles in either direction
    This is a good point. How many here drive a couple hours or more, get out of the car, get on a trail, do their peak(s), then get back in the car and drive home along the freeway?

    I know I'm one.
    Last edited by Neil; 09-15-2009 at 03:00 PM.

  12. #42
    Senior Member SAR-EMT40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giggy View Post
    I just find it all laughable his thing to create the illusion of wilderness when you have a road with major traffic less than 10 miles in either direction
    I don't consider distance to have anything to do with what is wilderness. 10 miles can be a very long distance when there is no one else around. And if the eco system is as it would be if no humans where there, that is probably as close to wilderness as you can get.

    The amount of traffic is directly proportional to the amount of people traveling and the number of routes available. There are only four routes (or so), east to west in an area the size of the state of rhode island. Rt 112 through the middle, Rt 302 kinda of north westy to south easty and Rt 2 over the north and Rt 16 in the east. In the winter in particular there is very little traffic, especially at night on any of those roads.

    Distance is a poor indicator of how alone or remote one is or could be. Time of travel is a much better one and you can spend a long time in those areas before getting to see another human if you play your cards right.

    I am curious, what would be your definition of wilderness? How big does an untracted area of woods with no current human interventions need to be before it could be considered wilderness? Its not Alaska or Montana, but no one claims it is.

    Keith
    Last edited by SAR-EMT40; 09-15-2009 at 03:11 PM.
    "The real work of men was hunting meat. The invention of agriculture was a giant step in the wrong direction, leading to serfdom, cities, and empire. From a race of hunters, artists, warriors, and tamers of horses, we degraded ourselves to what we are now: clerks, functionaries, laborers, entertainers, processors of information."- Ed Abbey

  13. #43
    Senior Member giggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAR-EMT40 View Post
    I am curious, what would be your definition of wilderness? How big does an untracted area of woods with no current human interventions need to be before it could be considered wilderness? Its not Alaska or Montana, but no one claims it is.

    Keith
    don't have a definition - but its not the pemi with old railroad tires, and old junk laying around... some call it artifacts...I call it junk... find the same crap in the town junkyard....

    just telling it like it is... I know we all want to think we are in some wild place, the reality is - most dayhike the place and get back into the car to civilization before 3pm with a 8am start... all good, its just not "wilderness" that merits taking stuff down and this huge effort to remove human activity.... where 100 years ago, it was over-run by logging industry.... wilderness to me would be more than a half of a day hike.

  14. #44
    Senior Member erugs's Avatar
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    My definition: where the hand of mankind hadn't made an impact. That's not the Pemi.
    Ellen

    Volunteer Maintainer: East Pond Trail

    "Through winter-time we call on spring/And through the spring on summer call/And when abounding hedges ring/Declare that winter's best of all/And after that there's nothing good/Because the spring-time has not come... William Butler Yeats

  15. #45
    Senior Member Willoughby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giggy View Post
    wilderness to me would be more than a half of a day hike.
    I was struck by this while reading the decision letter (and thanks to Kevin Rooney for posting the link, I read it end-to-end). We talk about "wilderness" on this board with definitions like giggy's, or unlike giggy's, but it's all moot. To Molly Fuller, the Pemigewasset is Wilderness, period, because Congress said so. As an administrator she's not interested in an abstract definition of "wilderness", she just knows that Congress defined this area to be addressed with that noun.

    The real issue is not "what is the definition of wilderness" but what are the rules laid down for administering the Pemigewasset - and how are they interpreted? At least, that's what I took away from the decision letter.

    Call the Pemi Wilderness the Pemi Shopping Mall, but use the same rules for administering it, and you get the same decision.

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