Fixing Postholes (NOT a rant)

First - This is NOT a whine about postholes and PLEASE don't add posts as such.

As I was working my way up Twinway in some partially broken, fairly deep, soft stuff I was following someone without snowshoes who was, on occasion, "compacting the trail in select 4" x 14" sections".

In an attempt to smooth the trail for my eventual return (out/back) I was thinking about the best way to fill the holes. If they were in a regular pattern for a while I'd step between the holes while climbing to try to join them and even things out a bit. On the way down I'd drag my feet a bit (with snow shoes) to fill them in and step to compress on the way by.

Both methods worked to a degree but I was wondering if there is some sort of "official" technique to pack a trail that's got a few holes in it.

I was thinking the same thing last winter as we made our way up Kearsarge North in untracked heavy, gluey snow. Our snowshoes were making these deep enormous 10X25 postholes that weren't any more aesthetic than boot holes. So the second person in line stepped between the holes to make a narrow trough and on the way down we were kicking at the edges of the trough to widen it. It looked darn good and we even got a thank you from a couple of people just starting to head up to spend the night in the cabin.

audrey said:

I was thinking the same thing last winter as we made our way up Kearsarge North in untracked heavy, gluey snow. Our snowshoes were making these deep enormous 10X25 postholes that weren't any more aesthetic than boot holes. So the second person in line stepped between the holes to make a narrow trough and on the way down we were kicking at the edges of the trough to widen it. It looked darn good and we even got a thank you from a couple of people just starting to head up to spend the night in the cabin.

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I did this with my own tracks yesterday. Of course, I don't really care about post holes. Except when leaf does it. Then I find it really annoying.

Rik said:

I did this with my own tracks yesterday. Of course, I don't really care about post holes. Except when leaf does it. Then I find it really annoying.

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i've been working on methods to bury you in that 10.5 x 42.75 hole for my eventual return.

audrey said:

I was thinking the same thing last winter as we made our way up Kearsarge North in untracked heavy, gluey snow. Our snowshoes were making these deep enormous 10X25 postholes that weren't any more aesthetic than boot holes. So the second person in line stepped between the holes to make a narrow trough and on the way down we were kicking at the edges of the trough to widen it.

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That used to be standard procedure on group trips in the olden days, on easy stuff the 2nd person would fill in between snowshoe prints rather than staying in them. Of course when you were kicking steps you were supposed to use the steps rather than destroying them. And if you slid down you would try to avoid the steps if the trail was wide enough.

RoySwkr said:

That used to be standard procedure on group trips in the olden days, on easy stuff the 2nd person would fill in between snowshoe prints rather than staying in them. Of course when you were kicking steps you were supposed to use the steps rather than destroying them. And if you slid down you would try to avoid the steps if the trail was wide enough.

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I usually try this method. And, if there gets enough of a trough built, and the trail is wide enough, I might try to add a course along the edge to widen it as well.

Breaking Trail Is Breaking Trail

I read in either Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills or Alping Climbing: Techniques to take you higher that the most energy efficient way is for the second to drag their feet A LITTLE on the unpacked snow in between and then to step on the packed track of the person in front of you. This scatters the snow more evenly while saving energy.

Personally If you want to make a nice track. pack down as much in between. If you want to save energy go with the aforementioned method.

Lately I have found that in the less dense snowpacks it may be less efficient for breaking trail and travel to wear snowshoes. The light powder we got down here it is easier to lift boots without snowshoes than force the snowshoes through all that powder. In the process you can drag your feet with out much force. I think if a whole group of people with bareboots trampled out a trail their would not be many complaints. I think its the few soles (souls) that go solo without boots that make all the difference.

RoySwkr said:

That used to be standard procedure on group trips in the olden days, on easy stuff the 2nd person would fill in between snowshoe prints rather than staying in them. Of course when you were kicking steps you were supposed to use the steps rather than destroying them. And if you slid down you would try to avoid the steps if the trail was wide enough.

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dug said:

I usually try this method.

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It works quite well. We used to do the same thing in my college outing club.

The first person works pretty hard, the second less, and by the fourth or so the trail is nice and flat. After a short stint, the first steps aside and gets at the end of the line. This rotates the work through the party. If some are stronger (or weaker) than the others, they can stay at the front longer (or shorter).

Doug

Postholes are not ALWAYS bad

I discovered this yesterday morning as I was walking Marley. We went out for a wack on the slopes of Garfield and crossed a previous wack we did last week. Looking at those post holes I noticed deer tracks in my postholes (I will never understand why, when I do NOT bring a camera I see things like this and when I bring a camera I never use it!). I can only assume that my postholes made it much easier for the deer to travel.

The difficulty with some of the "2nd.. 3rd.. 4th person does xxxxxx" techniques is that when you're solo you get really tired going back to as #2, #3 and #4.

Solo Vrs Team.

I second Doug's comments. I've done both and working with a group of 3 or 4 is just the cats meow. The stronger hikers remain at the front for a longer period of time and less ambitious hikers just take the front for 5 or 10 minutes. Is usually works out really well and produces a great trail for all those that follow. I noticed that after a fresh deep snow .. the brainery people wait till the work horses get out first and start breaking the trail ...

Barkingcat said:

Amen.

But, if I'm doing a solo out-and-back, I spend a bit more time packing down the trail going up, knowing that I'll reap the rewards on the return trip.

I think that next time I head out, I'll wear one GIANT snowshoe and hop up the trail on it, laying down a wide double-track. That could work...

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Please video that so we all can watch that show...

DougPaul said:

It works quite well. We used to do the same thing in my college outing club.

The first person works pretty hard, the second less, and by the fourth or so the trail is nice and flat. After a short stint, the first steps aside and gets at the end of the line. This rotates the work through the party. If some are stronger (or weaker) than the others, they can stay at the front longer (or shorter).

Doug

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RE: stronger or weaker group members.

On an Outing Club trip last winter, I was one of two people in a 12 man group to break trail. All the way up Tumbledown, the other guy and I switched off every 400 yards. It was a good workout.

woodsxc said:

RE: stronger or weaker group members.

On an Outing Club trip last winter, I was one of two people in a 12 man group to break trail. All the way up Tumbledown, the other guy and I switched off every 400 yards. It was a good workout.

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Let's see...
That's two hikers and ten freeloaders...

The first in line can work pretty hard. He's sweating buckets while the people at the tail are wearing 5 layers and falling asleep because the pace is too slow. The second does a good bit of work too.


I recall being at the front breaking our way up one of the steep spots at/near a stream crossing/waterfall on the Falling Waters Trail*. It felt like the slope was about 45 degrees (I'm sure it was actually less). I was digging snow at waist to chest level and throwing/pushing it down toward the next in line. He, in turn, threw/pushed it down on the next in line, etc. I presume it was nicely packed down by the time the last in line finished with it. There were 6-8 of us that day, but even with such a strong party we didn't make the ridge.

* We called it Falling Bodies Trail.

Doug

All that hard work as you pass some idiot galloping down bareboot. He completely destroys the packed tract to a rock salt consistancy that can never be repaired till we get new packing snow on top of it. When will they learn?

paul ron said:

All that hard work as you pass some idiot galloping down bareboot. He completely destroys the packed tract to a rock salt consistancy that can never be repaired till we get new packing snow on top of it. When will they learn?

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StashZdanuk said:

First - This is NOT a whine about postholes and PLEASE don't add posts as such.

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