Winter technique: steepness and ice

Two questions from an experienced summer hiker (Adk 46'er) but inexperienced winter hiker (Adk W4 (!)):

(1) How does one handle steep well-packed sections of a trail? My 8x25 Tubbs 'shoes don't have the extra heel traction device (I forget its name) and I felt comfortable only by charging rapidly (almost jogging) up those sections on the balls of my feet. Needless to say, the longer and steeper those portions of the trail were, the tougher that was to do! [PS: My Gene Prater book ("Showshoeing") describes only virgin deep soft snow ascent, digging steps with the toes. Obviously that doesn't apply to a packed trail.]

(2) Is there a typical technique to handle icy flows across trails? On Giant Mountain this Monday I found several places where water had flowed across the trail and frozen. Most weren't too steep and one could simply walk across or up, but in a couple of steeper places I used roots and scrub balsam at trailside. By lying down, fully stretched out, I was able to pull myself up or drop myself down to something level. (One section's descent was really uncomfortable; I could find only one tenuous handhold and, lying down to my full 6' length, my 'shoes were still probably 5 feet from level ground. I finally just let go and slid down.)

I carry crampons and microspikes... but didn't use either on that hike. Maybe that makes the answer to #2 obvious!

So: (1) Steep, packed, trail ascents, and (2) up and down icy portions of trail?

sounds like on the hard packed trail you are doing all you can. if your shoes only have the front crampon there isn't much else to do other than kick in hard and make sure you keep pressure on the front of the shoes. for trails like that a more aggressive style of snowshoe, think msr, could make a big difference. a more aggressive shoe could also help on icy sections as well, but nothing will replace your crampons if you have hard ice you need to traverse.
for descending steep slick sections i'm a big fan of coming down backwards facing the slope kicking in with either snowshoes or crampons. this tends to let your crampons/shoes get a better bite and makes it easier to stop a slide if you do come loose. i know some people will carry a length of rope to help ease themselves down those steep icy sections. this is technique i've never tried and it could certainly be more dangerous if one didn't know what they were doing. if you're going to be hiking in areas where a slip and long fall are possible it's probably prudent to carry and know how to use an ice axe to self arrest as well. i imagine on a number of those adk46 peaks this could be a good tool to have.

bryan

In Snowshoes and NOT crampons, going up very steep pitches of ice, kind of involves just that, using your crampons and pretty much solely the crampons on the snowshoe and ensuring that you have strong feet as you wont really be able to put your feet down. In deep snow and snowshoes, you can herringbone a bit, much like XC Skis but in ice, you can't really do that. If it is real steep and exposed (aka a no-fall zone), you most likely would want to change into crampons depending on your comfort level. A 10-pt or 12pt crampon will have more contact points and allow you to use a french step technique to either ascend or perhaps just to rest. A french step is more or less, using your side points and putting your feet perpendicular to the fall line, a side-step if you may call it. Although you will probably be still more comfortable climbing in the normal fashion, the crampon and the side step may allow you to rest periodically.

If you are using snowshoes, then you're real only choice that I know of is as you describe, going up on the balls of your feet using the crampon and making sure it has a solid grip.

They do make whippets for trekking poles that may help give you one more point of contact on ice. Black Diamond makes one. Of course, then there is the ice axe....

Jay

I had trouble on Giant a few winters ago, it sounds exactly like what you experienced. I had to drop down a few times, and hit pretty hard once. Yes, I could have used crampons, but it often seems like a huge bother to put them on for 1 passage on a hike. My wife wore her (very dull) crampons, and still fell at this point, but that's another issue!

I certainly do not run up step pitches on my toes. I usually go slowly up steep pitches, being careful to get a good bite. I have MSRs, so they have a lot of metal under them. If the trail is wide enough, you could try edging up side ways.

P.S. I never carry crampons and microspikes/stabilicers, it just seems like overkill. I view these devices as good for moderate steepness, or for early/late winter conditions. If you are going to do the W46, or similar climbing, my advice is to bring crampons (and practice how to use them beforehand).

Tom (5444W) Rankin

I'd say that (at least moderately sharp) crampons are the footwear of choice in such situations. A snowshoe with aggressive crampons (eg MSR) can be adequate on easier icy terrain.

Jay H said:

A 10-pt or 12pt crampon will have more contact points and allow you to use a french step technique to either ascend or perhaps just to rest. A french step is more or less, using your side points and putting your feet perpendicular to the fall line, a side-step if you may call it. Although you will probably be still more comfortable climbing in the normal fashion, the crampon and the side step may allow you to rest periodically.

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French technique is basically putting your foot flat on the ice so that as many points as possible are touching the ice. (As opposed to front-pointing (Austrian technique) where you put specialized front-points into the ice.) As you walk up steeper and steeper ice, you first splay your toes outward (pied en canard or duck-walking), and then both feet turned in the same direction across the slope (pied a plat), zigzagging your way up or stepping each foot over the other to go straight up. (There are more French technique positions for steeper ice, but this should be enough for general hiking.)

Flexible ankles are a big help for French technique...

Doug
ex-ice climber

What Doug said. I have even done a bit of both techniques when climbing prolonged steep icy sections, like say a slide climb in winter.

Using one foot perpendicular to the fall line and the other foot parallel, climb up, rest on the perp. foot, repeat. Occasionally changing foot positions as to alternate the rest foot. Works well for me. Used in conjuction with an ice axe in the arrest-position, it works well for me.

Jay

Tom Rankin said:

P.S. I never carry crampons and microspikes/stabilicers, it just seems like overkill. I view these devices as good for moderate steepness, or for early/late winter conditions. If you are going to do the W46, or similar climbing, my advice is to bring crampons (and practice how to use them beforehand).

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I often carry both. (Or instep crampons before microspikes or stabilicers were available.) Microspikes/stabilicers are good on mixed easy ice and bare ground and you can walk with a fairly natural step. Crampons are more awkward on such terrain and the points will be dulled by the rock and bare ground.

Three of us did a winter Presidential Traverse back before microspikes or stabilicers were available--we carried only ice-climbing crampons. (We had taken a technical route up Webster at the start.) There were multiple icy snowfields requiring crampons interspersed with zones of pure rock. We ended up wasting a lot of time taking our crampons on and off. If we had had microspikes or stabilicers, we could have walked straight through without changing our footwear.

Doug

Jay H said:

Using one foot perpendicular to the fall line and the other foot parallel, climb up, rest on the perp. foot, repeat. Occasionally changing foot positions as to alternate the rest foot. Works well for me. Used in conjuction with an ice axe in the arrest-position, it works well for me.

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Yes, this is a good hybrid technique: front-point (or flat-foot with the toe pointed uphill) with one foot and French technique with the other (pied troiseme). You can stand on the heel of the French technique foot for a rest. Try to use footholds (slightly more level spots) for the French technique foot, particularly for any resting spots.

Fast, but tiring for the front-pointing foot.

Probably not very useful for snowshoes, even if they have good crampons...


If you have front points, you can also front-point for short sections. Technically this is very easy, but it is very strenuous and hard on the calves. Beginners often rush to front-point is spots where French technique is far easier, but perhaps more subtle.


Descending is sometimes easier if you turn around and back down.

Doug

DougPaul said:

Flexible ankles are a big help for French technique...

Doug
ex-ice climber

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As is loosening the top laces of your boots slightly to allow your ankle to roll a bit in the boot.



My tip is regarding using trekking poles. (Get it? "tip"..."poles" )

When descending the steeps backwards -- where you're turned around facing the slope so that your 'shoes get good crampon bites -- I've sometimes found it useful to use my trekking poles almost like ice tools.

I collapse them as far as they will go and then choke down on them to where I'm holding them just above the snow baskets. This lets me stab the tips into the ice up near my waist/shoulders, giving a much more secure feeling than trying to effectively plant the tip of the pole 3' away, at a completely wrong angle.

James
current ice climber

DougPaul said:

If you have front points, you can also front-point for short sections. Technically this is very easy, but it is very strenuous and hard on the calves. Beginners often rush to front-point is spots where French technique is far easier, but perhaps more subtle.

Doug

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...and can be somewhat pinching if you have tight fitting plastic mtn'ing boots on. I found that out when I climbed Rainier years ago. Since then, I've moved on to leather or synthetic mtn'ing boots...

Jay

J.Dub said:

As is loosening the top laces of your boots slightly to allow your ankle to roll a bit in the boot.

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My winter mountaineering boots are leather with adequate ankle flexibility for French technique. Plastic boots with stiff ankles often don't work as well...

They are also heavier than the corresponding plastics... Great for step kicking , a bit slower on the level .

Doug

Attempting pied troisieme in snowshoes would be quite clumsy, but it might be fun to watch!

Doug's info is all good stuff. Even if you don't view yourself as an "ice climber," it pays to learn some of that stuff. Maybe there's an online resource with a video? Then practice. (Same applies to ice axe use.)

(I've always thought that French crampon technique and Austrian (sometimes called German) crampon technique are wonderfully characteristic of their respective national cultures. Early crampons lacked front points. When faced with the need to climb steeper ice, the French developed an elegant dance step; the Germans developed hardware.)

TCD

TCD said:

Doug's info is all good stuff. Even if you don't view yourself as an "ice climber," it pays to learn some of that stuff. Maybe there's an online resource with a video? Then practice. (Same applies to ice axe use.)

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Excellent advice! Having had a little climbing training helps me a lot, in all 4 seasons.

I have seen sometime long ago a fairly good illustrated website of the french technique somewhere on the net...

Jay

Tom Rankin said:

Having had a little climbing training helps me a lot, in all 4 seasons.

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I feel the same way. One can often use a rock or ice move or two when hiking to help one on one's way.

I don't know of any good online sources (they may be there, I've just haven't looked). One of the best books for French technique is Yvon Chouinard's "Climbing Ice", but it is out of print and a collectors' item. You might be able to get a used copy. There are a number of books available at places like REI, but they often emphasize front-pointing and techniques for harder climbs. There is related info in the thread "Ice axe technique": http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15140

Doug

Yes, I could have used crampons, but it often seems like a huge bother to put them on for 1 passage on a hike

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I can remember too many cases of this to count ... but I shudder when I think back about some of them, and one of my resolutions re: winter hiking this year has been to go ahead and do the smart thing when the alternative is risky, even though it takes time. Being out there with an injury is a lot slower.

I don't think anyone has mentioned chopping steps yet, but if you have an ice axe and the ice in question is not super-hard, you can usually rough up the surface enough to enable your snowshoe crampon to comfortably do the rest.

mirabela said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned chopping steps yet, but if you have an ice axe and the ice in question is not super-hard, you can usually rough up the surface enough to enable your snowshoe crampon to comfortably do the rest.

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D'OH!!! <slaps head> Of course.

I'm in the middle of reading John Hunt's "The Ascent of Everest" where the Brits and Sherpa chopped hundreds (if not thousands) of steps in the Icefall and Lhote Face...and yet I failed to come up with this suggestion. <sigh>

That's kickin' it old skool!

DougPaul said:

One of the best books for French technique is Yvon Chouinard's "Climbing Ice", but it is out of print and a collectors' item.

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Paperback copies are cheap on Amazon. I just finished reading my copy and it is an excellent resource for general winter mountaineering.

Here is what I do:

1. Many snowshoes have the crampon attached to the boot and then the boot is attached to the snowshoe via a pivor bar or strap. So the position of your boot = the position of the crampon. Therefore, using the french technique (previously explained) will maximize the nuber of crampon teeth on the terrain. This helps.

2. Even when the trail is hard packed snow, there can be a light dusting of powder snow. If this is the case, (and even more so on more loose snow) then it helps to pack your steps. IMO to correctly do this, you place a shoe in the next position with a few pounds of weight on it. Meaning just rest your leg on it. Then very LIGHTLY tap the shoe on the snow one or more times. After each tap momementarily pause for a split second second. The goal is to firm and condition the snow to provide for better traction. This gets the snow to form to your show and also set up. Your building a platform (level or at an incline) that requires finess not bashing the snow After the last tap, slowly transfer your weight onto the shoe. The steeper the grade the more times you want to tap your shoe. I rarely tap more than 3 times. It might sound slow, but it is far more efficeint than loosing traction and slipping. I can climb very steep sections of snow this way and enjoy outperforming highly conditioned younger athletes with no expertise that often flounder on grades.

3. As mentioned before but not detailed, I will use my pole as a single point "crampon" meaning plant your pole in the hard pack and then step with your snowshoe on the uphill side ofthe pole so the frame of the shoe rests against the side of the pole. This works great to cross a bad short section. I also do the same to supprt my compainions shoe if they are climbing in front of me. I plant my pole in the snow so if their shoe slides, my pole will support them.

mirabela said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned chopping steps yet, but if you have an ice axe and the ice in question is not super-hard, you can usually rough up the surface enough to enable your snowshoe crampon to comfortably do the rest.

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A largely forgotten art...

It is certainly faster to chop a step or two than change footwear.

J.Dub said:

I'm in the middle of reading John Hunt's "The Ascent of Everest" where the Brits and Sherpa chopped hundreds (if not thousands) of steps in the Icefall and Lhote Face...and yet I failed to come up with this suggestion.

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Remember too that they had to create a path suitable for (often untrained) porters to carry loads on. Steps, once chopped, are much easier to negotiate on steep terrain than using crampon-based ice climbing technique. (Of course, they may need to be rechopped every day or so...)

The climbs of the classic period in the Alps were also done with chopped steps. Climbers used nailed boots which made it fairly easy to stand in the steps. (Crampons only appeared in the early 1900s and front points in the 1930s. Some elite climbers continued to use nailed boots into the 1950s.) This was the era of the 6-foot long ice axes as they were mostly used for step cutting and glacier probing.

The earlier editions of Freedom of the Hills had good sections on step cutting. The latest only has a few paragraphs.

Freedom of the Hills also has a section describing ice climbing techniques including the techniques for easier ice which might be useful for hikers.

Doug