Poll: Do you typically carry overnight gear on a winter 4K dayhike?

I usually always bring some emergency stuff, and have combinations of several options depending on how far I am going and where and the conditions. I have never brought a sleeping bag. Mine are too bulky and heavy at 3lbs to consider. I would like a 1lb emergency sleeping bag and may buy one some day. Now that I am taking my kids along at times, my needs for group grear for an emergency has increased. There is much greater risk skiing off trail then snowshoeing on one.

I tend to think that laying in a snow trench in a bivy bag or sleeping bag would be miserable. Tree wells are harder to find then you would think, and may not be avail if you needed one. So my first line of defense lately has been a poncho tarp. This would let me rig a shelter most anywhere, including right over someone injured. I am attracted to the bothy bag idea, and so this is a poor attempt that at that too: I can just pull it over my head and over my kids, and we could stamp a hole in the snow and take cover. Maybe use poles or skis as a center pole. That seems better than any bivy bag option, and gives you modest protection to change layers, regroup, eat, or dig in further. I want to play with this more, and should have done that in my woods when I had lots of snow earlier in the winter.

After that I would say: cell phone (mostly work high in Vt); thin pad; extra layers; hand warmers; bivy sack; and maybe an esbit stove or a candle.

I carry an emergency space bivy (tin foil bag), a bunch of hand warmers, extra layers and enough hard shell gear to keep me out of the weather for quite some time. I do carry a reliable GPS so whiteouts don't particularly worry me, sprained ankles can be hiked on and a first aid kit ain't helping when you manage to break a leg.

I'm in the school of thought where I don't want to have too much stuff that it creates a scenario I'm so loaded down with pack weight it gets me in trouble. Knowing when to turn back has done me wonders this winter and while it's never an easy decision it's never the wrong one.

Could I survive a night out with what I have? I'm not sure, but then again, who really is unless you've done it in an emergency situation.

It's all risk management and how much risk you're willing to accept. I'm with Dr Wu in that the when the S hits the fan and you can keep a reasonably cool head, you'll pull through on grit and determination.

Full disclosure: I'm not what you'd call experienced, I routinely push the limits of my comfort zone. I frequently hike solo, in the winter, sometimes at night.

dr_wu002 said:

I would make the argument that if you got hurt or stranded and did not have any of those things in your pack that with will, determination and at least 1/2 a nut in your head you'd be able to make it to safety. I guess you can ask yourself if having those items would make you take greater risks because they some how give you more confidence? -Dr. Wu

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Speaking only for myself, I say no. I don't think I take greater risks, nor do I have more confidence, simply because I have all that with me. I began hauling that load because of Alex -- to NOT have all items with me makes me negligent, in my own opinion. If anything should happen to either one of us, she MUST be kept warm and safe, even comfortable if I can manage it.

The times I hike without her, I still carry the gear. I'm used to it now, and so I figure why not?

No overnight gear. I carry the bear minimum to make it through the day. In fact, if I know the day is going to be longer I'd probably try to carry even less and be even more conscious about my weight.

IMO
More energy = more agility, less mistakes, shorter day.
Carrying more stuff = less energy, more mistakes, longer day.

I was benighted once on a long day with overnight temps just under freezing and we had no overnight gear. The night sucked, but I just made sure we kept moving very pragmatically and carefully through the night to avoid any mistakes that would lead to injury or death. It was better than just waiting around freezing. If we had carried overnight gear the whole ordeal would've just have taken a lot longer.

Following the technicalities of your poll then no. But the world is not black and white. I ALWAYS have a down jacket, extra hats, gloves, etc. and my rain gear as well as a combination first aid/survival kit which, taken as a whole, should get me through the night as well as if I had a sleeping bag, etc. I would not say it would be a comfortable night, but still.....

Add to that I am pretty confident other skills would get me through the night, be it a snow cave, starting a fire, and so on.

Brian

i can't agree more with cbcbd.

as a wise and extraordinary climber said to me one day, "why are you carrying that water and food? you going up there to climb or have a f*%kin picnic?"

that is all.

Just because my house hasn't burned down yet doesn't mean I will cancel my fire insurance.

Nevertheless, after greater than 30 years of doing stuff and nothing bad happening to me I keep paring my load down to progressively lower levels.

Recently I attempted a moderately ambitious whack with a buddy whose day-pack weighed 32 pounds. Mine weighed about 15. We had to scramble up a steep pitch and we used our ice axes to help us along. His MSR's lost purchase and when he slipped back his ice ax held nicely and the leash yanked his shoulder just about out of the socket. The ensuing injury required us to turn around. A month later he still has a sore shoulder. Was the slippage due to the heavy pack? I don't know but the question is a worthwhile one.

Question:

TrishandAlex said:

The times I hike without her, I still carry the gear. I'm used to it now, and so I figure why not?

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Answer:

cbcbd said:

No gear. I carry the bear minimum to make it through the day. In fact, if I know the day is going to be longer I'd probably try to carry even less and be even more conscious about my weight.

IMO
More energy = more agility, less mistakes, shorter day.
Carrying more stuff = less energy, more mistakes, longer day.

I was benighted once on a long day with overnight temps just under freezing and we had no overnight gear. The night sucked, but I just made sure we kept moving very pragmatically and carefully through the night to avoid any mistakes that would lead to injury or death. It was better than just waiting around freezing. If we had carried overnight gear the whole ordeal would've just have taken a lot longer.

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-Dr. Wu

TrishandAlex said:

Speaking only for myself, I say no. I don't think I take greater risks, nor do I have more confidence, simply because I have all that with me. I began hauling that load because of Alex -- to NOT have all items with me makes me negligent, in my own opinion. If anything should happen to either one of us, she MUST be kept warm and safe, even comfortable if I can manage it.

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Honestly, I don't understand this. People have been taking their kids along with them for millions of years at this point. You can take whatever you want with you -- I don't care... but what makes you negligent if you leave it at home? What I don't understand is the automatic assumption of Less Gear = Negligence. Why is this the default?

-Dr. Wu

dr_wu002 said:

What I don't understand is the automatic assumption of Less Gear = Negligence. Why is this the default?

-Dr. Wu

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My kid looks to me to protect her. I feel that if I have the gear to keep her safe and warm, then I am adequately protecting her. If I go out there without such items, then if I/she becomes injured and we have to wait, there is a risk of becoming hypothermic. I can't let that happen, plain and simple. Having the gear with me lessens her chance of hypothermia should we be forced to overnight it/wait for SARS.

As for the more mistakes risk -- I still say that isn't true, at least not for me. I don't think I'm at risk for making mistakes simply because I'm carrying a heavier pack. The longer day part -- I don't mind that, I don't feel the need to rush during a hike.

ETA: I don't care what others bring on their hikes -- I speak only for me and for what I am personally comfortable with. I'm very much of the "hike your own hike" mindset.

Lol, thanks Wu for the vote.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that going lighter is a lot more fun and avoids injuries in the long run but no situation is the same.

Truth is, if I was hiking or climbing with a child I wouldn't be doing programs that would be stretching the day and had a good possibility of benighting unless you were quick and efficient. My days would be a lot more conservative and because of that I probably wouldn't mind taking extra comfort or "safety" weight for the group. And if the program was that long that I don't think we'd comfortably finish in a reasonable day then I would just turn a dayhike into an overnighter and pack as that.

TrishandAlex said:

The longer day part -- I don't mind that, I don't feel the need to rush during a hike.

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Trips have too many variables and it's hard to compare unless everyone states all the stats of what they consider to be a dayhike. It's not about "rushing", everyone has their own pace.

I can't believe that everyone would be ok with a planned dayhike up to Washington up the Tux trail where the flower-smelling and non-rushing was so enforced that you only start up the summit cone at 4pm after starting at 6am. I'm sure next time you planned that same trip you would take some "rushing" into account for the dayhike, or just say screw it, we don't want to do that sort of pace, we're doing it as an overnight - and that's fine.

It's not about rushing, it's about individual pacing and the program.
Didn't someone here say something about knowing when to turn back? I think that's a bigger point than taking all the 10 essentials. Know thyself and you'll probably live a little longer in the mountains

And now, a word from Yvon Chouinard

"If you carry bivy gear, you will bivy"

I don't

Being an ultralight hiker, I carry a space blanket, International orange waterproof poncho, and first aid kit on all hikes. During the winter I add warm things like extra heavy socks, scarfs, down gloves, lots of hand warmers epecially since they now have 7 hour long ones, extra thermal underware. But I keep my pack light as I can keep it.... and something to eat...and eat it before the bears get to it
I was taught when I first started winter hiking years ago that if you are lost during the winter and there is snow around, usually in the whites and Adirondacks there is, finding or building a snow cave is one of the best ways to survive a night in the woods during the winter.
A few years ago two casual day hikers in the White Mountains got lost on a day hike during a warm winter day without any gear at all. As you can guess a quick snow storm came in and they had to spend the night on the side of a mountain. The found or made a snow cave and survived the night nicely. I believe they walked out the next day before rescue teams could get started.

Not being able to cover every emergency that comes up doesn't bother me. My friend and I were hiking South Twin in the Whites with this wonderful woman that carries 60lbs of emergency gear in her back pack. She fell on the trail very near the top of the mountain and broke one of the bones in her leg. There was nothing in ther back pack that could help her. My friend and I helped her off the mountain ... took hours and hours.

That is my two cents

Tim Seaver said:

"If you carry bivy gear, you will bivy"

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The corollary: If you carry food, you will eat.

TrishandAlex said:

Speaking only for myself, I say no. I don't think I take greater risks, nor do I have more confidence, simply because I have all that with me. I began hauling that load because of Alex -- to NOT have all items with me makes me negligent, in my own opinion. If anything should happen to either one of us, she MUST be kept warm and safe, even comfortable if I can manage it.

The times I hike without her, I still carry the gear. I'm used to it now, and so I figure why not?

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I agree - having extra gear, which I know how to use, doesn't make me take extra risks. It makes me feel slightly more secure, but I am pretty risk averse in any case, so having stuff I may not need only gives me peace of mind. The other advantage is that one of the reasons I hike is to get a workout, and carrying extra gear will help me burn a few more calories.

as far as "no need to rush" during hikes, etc. there is a certain '"urgency" i feel is good to have in the mountains in winter during hiking or climbing. this doesn't mean i'm running around frantic.. it means that if i were to break an ankle, i'd rather break it at 1 pm coming down then at 6 pm high in the alpine zone. going light enables me to move.

Tim Seaver said:

"If you carry bivy gear, you will bivy"

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Maddy's quote
"If you don't have bivy gear and you have a serious mishap, rendering you incapable of moving in frigid temps, you will freeze." Way

"The mountains will be as could and lonely tonight as they were 200 years ago. Do NOT cross the boundary unless you are prepared to spend the night in the woods!"
Courtesy of Killington

I have observed that in the comfort of my home my pack seems very heavy. However, when I find myself in desperate need of it's contents, it miraculously seems very light.

I carry emergency gear if I go for afternoon hikes with my Akita here in Western MA. There are lots of areas with no cell service and I have experienced serious hypothermia in NO MN. (Have shared that story previously.) Suffice it to say...it ain't pretty.
Cold is cold, regardless of where you happen to be.

Trish...you go girl. I'm with ya on this one.

Casual Hiker said:

I agree - having extra gear, which I know how to use, doesn't make me take extra risks. It makes me feel slightly more secure, but I am pretty risk averse in any case, so having stuff I may not need only gives me peace of mind. The other advantage is that one of the reasons I hike is to get a workout, and carrying extra gear will help me burn a few more calories.

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Yep, that sums up my situation.

That being said -- in no way would I EVER suggest what's right for anyone else. Hope my posts haven't come across that way. I'm a firm believer in each hiker doing whatever he/she feels best for him/herself. We all have our own comfort zones, for our own personal reasons. You hike your way, I'll hike mine, and it's all good.

Live free or die, and all that jazz.

cbcbd said:

Lol, thanks Wu for the vote.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that going lighter is a lot more fun and avoids injuries in the long run but no situation is the same.

Truth is, if I was hiking or climbing with a child I wouldn't be doing programs that would be stretching the day and had a good possibility of benighting unless you were quick and efficient. My days would be a lot more conservative ......

...

It's not about rushing, it's about individual pacing and the program.
Didn't someone here say something about knowing when to turn back? I think that's a bigger point than taking all the 10 essentials. Know thyself and you'll probably live a little longer in the mountains

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I agree that hiking with a kid would probably make me hike more conservative.

Take whatever you want on a hike. If you want to strap a piano to your pack it's your business. I once started a thread about carrying a coffin on winter hikes (you can use it as a bivy for overnights and if you attach sled runners you can ski down mountains in it...). What I totally disagree with is the attitude that not taking a sleeping bag, tent, stove on winter hikes somehow makes you negligent. If you're an incompetent moron with the IQ of a chicken and get yourself into trouble and don't have the gear or the brains to get yourself out that's one thing. But that's more of a common sense issue: don't leave home without that. The other things are personal preference and I guess depend first on what you define as "risk" and then what "risks" you are willing to take.

-Dr. Wu

Ummm ... maybe a poll should be taken as to whether anyone's mind has been changed as a result of this thread?

Is this thread suffering from a bit of testosterone toxicity?

Hike your own hike. Die your own death.