Poll: Do you typically carry overnight gear on a winter 4K dayhike?

good thread.
couple things.
I think the good old art of fire building is understated..thats how people used to survive before the days of super gear. I am gathering that it is a balance between carrying so much that you could end up breaking an ankle someday, and making sure you have enough. A z rest and down bag would weigh about 4 pounds, an emergency bivy about an ounce. Sounds like if it really came down to it, about 4 pounds of extra weight would do it most of the time.

Casual Hiker said:

I'd bring googles, too, cause it helps you to find all sorts of things.

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Chip said:

Easy. That's the only one on his list I can actually take credit for. He'd ask me a question, and I'd say "Google it." !

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Never, ever bother with the extra weight and baggage of a wiseacre, you will find that there are plenty of them in the Whites.

Maddy said:

I suggest this scenario.
Pretend you have an open leg fx. Go out in your backyard at about 5pm solo with your pack filled with the gear you would take on a hike in winter. Do this on a night when it's a bit stormy, the winds are blowing, snow or rain is falling, and the temps are 0-20. Plan to spend the next 36 hrs in that same spot because you are unable to move. No cell service. No PLB. No cheating. You can only use whatever gear you brought with you. It would be very safe because you could always opt to run into the house if the situation became intolerable. Document your experience and post the results on VFTT.

...

Also, has anyone on the boards ever spent a prolonged period of time, say 24-36 hrs, with a serious injury, unable to move, in adverse conditions, with no bivy gear?

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Ask Joe Simpson and Aaron Ralston about scenarios I think if any of us fit your scenario we'd be rich off our book.

But what do you mean by "serious injury"? To me a broken ankle or a "hobbable" injury would not be serious enough for me to hang out in the elements doing nothing for 36hrs. Open leg fx and I'm a few miles from the road and help is 36hrs away? - I'd probably splint it as best as I could and try to hobble out.

I have some scenarios to throw out:
#1
You are alone taking a dump in the backcountry. You squeeze so hard that you pass out. As you pass out you hit the side of your head on a sharp piece of NH granite. You are out for an unknown number minutes and start to come to. You have a killer headache, don't remember what happened, you feel nausea and vomit. You start to feel more disoriented as time goes by and do some more vomiting. You are getting very sleepy and out of it and it's almost nighttime. Do you stay put or go?

#2
You are alone, trip and fall on a tree branch, with it cleverly fitting between your ribs and puncturing one of your lungs. Breathing gets progressively harder the more you walk and you start feeling more and more pressure in your chest with each breath. It's really tough to breathe, you start hyperventilating and getting very dizzy. It's getting dark quick. Do you stay put or go?

Bonus scenario:
You are alone carrying your 40lb pack in the hills. You feel a sudden heavy pain in your chest that radiates to your left arm. "Crap", you think, "I'm going to die just like my dad". This pain is constant and has not gone away after a full agonizing 30 minutes. It's getting dark quick. Do you stay put or go?

Assume for both of these that the wind is howling, freezing temps, crazy weather, dogs and cats living together, mass histeria, etc. You have a tent, -20 sleeping bag, a whole lasagna, 5 liters of warm gatorade and are 8 miles from the nearest road and civilization.

This is quite the discussion and I know the precise answer.

Everybody here is right. Why is that? Because this is one of those few games in life where you get to call your own shots and do as you see fit. You're the boss of your own hike, nobody else is.

Between the 2 extremes of carrying no gear at all and lugging a 40 lb. pack on a day hike there is incremental progress towards some sort of compromise somewhere in the 15-30 pound range.


(You should always have overnight gear with you when reading these threads. )

cbcbd said:

I have some scenarios to throw out:
#1
You are alone taking a dump in the backcountry. You squeeze so hard that you pass out. As you pass out you hit the side of your head on a sharp piece of NH granite. You are out for an unknown number minutes and start to come to. You have a killer headache, don't remember what happened, you feel nausea and vomit. You start to feel more disoriented as time goes by and do some more vomiting. You are getting very sleepy and out of it and it's almost nighttime. Do you stay put or go?

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I have a question of scenario #1.

Is it deliverance country and is there a faint wafting odor of Vaseline in the air as you awaken?

What I carry

I carry a Thermo-Lite Bivy, a space blanket and spare synthetic parka, spare heavy mittens, wrapped in a water-proof bag, and sometimes a reflective ground cover, during the winter. In the summer I might leave behind the parka, depending upon the hike, exposure, etc.

I've many times thought of buying a full bivy sack and sleeping bag. The $ is one aspect, but frankly the larger issue is the weight. Given some experiences I've read, I may want to at least revisit the Thermo-lite and consider a different bag.

--Mike

Full length foam pad, plastic tarp, mylar bivy sack(one step up from a space blanket) and down jacket. Can't be more than a few pounds total, and it may one day save my butt.

Wow what a thread, I'm a total dork on this one, but I follow my daughters advice. She brought a bright magenta coat, with the logic, "this way it will be easy for them to find my body". So my goal is when they find mine, Fish & Game will at least be able to say he had enough equipment to survive if the rock hadn't fallen on his head

I normally bring a bivy, puffy coat, and hand warmers.

Seeing how this tread has strayed from discussing only overnight gear, I'll share something I just saw.
I got this quote from EMS's "Equipment List for Presidential Range Traverse "

Also, remember, you have to carry all your clothing with you, so packing efficiently is important. If you can't wear it all at once, you don’t need to bring it.

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http://emsclimb.com/newhampshire_northconway_presidentialtraverse.shtml?emssrcid=Email:0031210A

So, if I can't fit 2 pairs of socks under my boots, I only need to bring one? hmmm....

Edit: I've never paid to do a guided trip and don't foresee doing so in the near future.

As informative and interesting as the discussion has been, what I think is most interesting is that about 60% of the poll respondents said that they typically carry sleeping bag, etc on either every hike or on the most challenging hikes.

Now, there's no way that 60% of the people I come across on a long Prezzie dayhike are carrying that much equipment. And this past weekend on Moosilauke, of the 40 or so people I saw, nobody had that much equipment with them. I get asked on every dayhike if I'm staying out over night b/c my pack is generally pretty big and I carry a Z-rest on the outside. I seldom have a sleeping bag with me, but a down parka, down jacket, waterproof gear, extra socks, gloves, hats, and whatnot.

So, it seems safe to say that the poll is not representative of the general hiking community. There are a few conclusions:

1) We're all a bunch of liars.
2) The VFTT community is not representative of the general hiking community.

That's pretty obvious and predictable for most of us.

But... What I find interesting is how vastly different this poll shaped up, than from what a poll of the general hiking community would be. It's no surprise that a group of more committed and experienced hikers would differ, but I didn't expect it to be way way different. I mean, 30% typically carry a sleeping bag on every hike? There's no way I would estimate that figure to be more than 5% of the general winter hiking population.

Is anyone else surprised by the numbers, in light of what they observe while passing by other hikers?
Does that mean that a group of more experience and committed hikers (VFTT, generally speaking anyway) is more likely to carry the kitchen sink on a winter hike?

Another interesting question would be: how has your winter hiking daypack changed as you've garnered more winter hiking experience?

blacknblue said:

As informative and interesting as the discussion has been, what I think is most interesting is that about 60% of the poll respondents said that they typically carry sleeping bag, etc on either every hike or on the most challenging hikes.

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Polls are difficult to word well and I think many responses might indicate what the person thinks they should do vs what they actually do. Only 21% actually indicated they carry a sleeping bag, the rest indicated they carry (what they consider to be) overnight gear. I believe most of those consider a light bivy and a pad overnight gear and a certain percentage of the sleeping bag responders might have done the same. We'd need another poll that actually specifies the different items considered "essential" or "extra".

The VFTT Bubble of Safety

blacknblue said:

So, it seems safe to say that the poll is not representative of the general hiking community. ...

.....

Does that mean that a group of more experience and committed hikers (VFTT, generally speaking anyway) is more likely to carry the kitchen sink on a winter hike?

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Replacing the words "experienced and committed" with less flattering adjectives is another possibility, but not one that I am going to elaborate on.

http://emsclimb.com/newhampshire_northconway_presidentialtraverse.shtml?emssrcid=Email:0031210A said:

If you can't wear it all at once, you don’t need to bring it.

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That list is only for a Presidential traverse, so falling in a brook and needing a full change of clothes is not an issue

And I think it applies only to clothing, so it doesn't mean not to have both snowshoes and crampons

Still, having a change of socks and shirt is a good idea, and the WMG suggests spare hat and mittens in case they are blown away - I have accidentally dropped both on hikes and not always found them again

cbcbd said:

Didn't someone here say something about knowing when to turn back? I think that's a bigger point than taking all the 10 essentials. Know thyself and you'll probably live a little longer in the mountains

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I think that is the key issue. Regardless of what stuff you have, you need to be willing to quit when you decide you don't have enough. It's like the "bring snowshoes" note - if you don't bring them you may have to turn back when the postholing gets too bad. If you did bring them and also your tent and sleeping bag, you may be too tired to put them on

cbcbd said:

#1
You are alone taking a dump in the backcountry. You squeeze so hard that you pass out. As you pass out you hit the side of your head on a sharp piece of NH granite. You are out for an unknown number minutes and start to come to. You have a killer headache, don't remember what happened, you feel nausea and vomit. You start to feel more disoriented as time goes by and do some more vomiting. You are getting very sleepy and out of it and it's almost nighttime. Do you stay put or go?

#2
You are alone, trip and fall on a tree branch, with it cleverly fitting between your ribs and puncturing one of your lungs. Breathing gets progressively harder the more you walk and you start feeling more and more pressure in your chest with each breath. It's really tough to breathe, you start hyperventilating and getting very dizzy. It's getting dark quick. Do you stay put or go?

Bonus scenario:
You are alone carrying your 40lb pack in the hills. You feel a sudden heavy pain in your chest that radiates to your left arm. "Crap", you think, "I'm going to die just like my dad". This pain is constant and has not gone away after a full agonizing 30 minutes. It's getting dark quick. Do you stay put or go?

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These are tough situations to find yourself in.

Scenario #1: I would go.

Scenario #2: Unfortunately, I think it's not going to matter either way.

Scenario #3: I would stay put and rest.

These are 3 tough, life threatening situations. Hope no one finds themselves in any such situation.

Aviarome

Aviarome said:

These are tough situations to find yourself in.

Scenario #1: I would go.

Scenario #2: Unfortunately, I think it's not going to matter either way.

Scenario #3: I would stay put and rest.

These are 3 tough, life threatening situations. Hope no one finds themselves in any such situation.

Aviarome

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Sounds good!

Sorry your thread has gotten off track here, hikingmaineac, but it's a good one.

For me, and as some others have said, the 3 most important pieces of "gear" in the winter are;
1) Being in great shape (which I wasn't this season and really noticed the difference). Slow, tired and stumbling is no way to safely complete a successful winter hike.
2) Realizing early enough when it's time to turn back or adjust your goals. and
3) Not hiking solo.

The rest of it is fine tuning and open to interpretation.

Tim Seaver said:

That reminds me of another story. I was doing a loop in the Needles section of Canyonlands NP, headed back to the trailhead after a 15 mile trail run. I had a small hydration pack, some food and water, some clothes, a headlight and a map. As night was falling, I came across a young hiker with a huge backpack sitting on the side of the trails, obviously very upset. His "friends" had basically walked away from him, as he couldn't keep up - he was out of shape, overweight, and overburdened, and simply couldn't carry his pack any further. So I took my hydration pack and put in inside his backpack and carried it for him the remaining 3 miles to his "friends", who I had a few choice words for.

So I suggest to everyone: Be nice to the lightly loaded, fast movin' folks out there...they just may save YOUR butt someday.

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Yup. Good point.

That reminds me of a few incidents:
- Top of Huntington Ravine headwall...hiker blows out the sole on one of his fast-n-light trail runners...thing is flapping like crazy, only the heel is still attached....I take duct tape out of my pack and we take care of his shoe...10 minutes later (we're still hiking together now as he's no longer quite so speedy with one sole made of duct tape) he realizes he should've brought some gloves, so I take my spare gloves out of my pack and give them to him (I get them back at Pinkham).
- Coming down Tuckerman...solo girl sitting resting with bad ankle...I take ace bandage out of my pack and give it to her...she tapes her ankle...I go in the woods and find her a walking stick...I carry her pack the final 1.5 miles to Pinkham. (Guys, the answer is no.)
- Crawford Path (somewhere north of Eisenhower)...guy is fiddling with his failed hydration pack...he's thirsty, hot, and PO'd....I take an extra water bottle from my pack and give it to him and say "bye"....he thanks me as if I just offered him one of my kidneys.

In each case above, the hiker I helped appeared younger, fitter, and probably faster than I was. Each of them also had a much smaller pack with less stuff in it than mine.

So it cuts both ways. Sometimes the help we offer is our extra energy, reserved from going light. And sometimes the help we offer is our extra gear, from going not-so-light. We help those who need help...it's no big deal...it's what we do.

Chip said:

Polls are difficult to word well and I think many responses might indicate what the person thinks they should do vs what they actually do. Only 21% actually indicated they carry a sleeping bag, the rest indicated they carry (what they consider to be) overnight gear. I believe most of those consider a light bivy and a pad overnight gear and a certain percentage of the sleeping bag responders might have done the same. We'd need another poll that actually specifies the different items considered "essential" or "extra".

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Agreed, polls are difficult to word well, and people may not be entirely truthful about what they actually carry vs. what they think they ought to carry. Still, it implies that over 20% carry a sleeping bag every time, and another 40% carry ample overnight gear on more challenging dayhikes. This seems to be WAY higher than what I've observed of the general hiking populace on the trails.

The interesting question is: what accounts for the discrepancy? Why are VFTTers carrying more gear than non-VFTT winter hikers?
Are we just gearheads? Are we more experienced? Are we more willing to pour money into hiking equipment? Have we had one too many close calls?

The most obvious answer is something like, "Well, we just know better than the newbies," but, because there are many VFTTers who have said that they carry less than they used to, experience alone wouldn't account for it.

Maybe I just have nothing better to think about on long winter solo hikes.

Billy said:

That reminds me of a few incidents:
- Top of Huntington Ravine headwall...hiker blows out the sole on one of his fast-n-light trail runners...thing is flapping like crazy, only the heel is still attached....I take duct tape out of my pack and we take care of his shoe...10 minutes later (we're still hiking together now as he's no longer quite so speedy with one sole made of duct tape) he realizes he should've brought some gloves, so I take my spare gloves out of my pack and give them to him (I get them back at Pinkham).
- Coming down Tuckerman...solo girl sitting resting with bad ankle...I take ace bandage out of my pack and give it to her...she tapes her ankle...I go in the woods and find her a walking stick...I carry her pack the final 1.5 miles to Pinkham. (Guys, the answer is no.)
- Crawford Path (somewhere north of Eisenhower)...guy is fiddling with his failed hydration pack...he's thirsty, hot, and PO'd....I take an extra water bottle from my pack and give it to him and say "bye"....he thanks me as if I just offered him one of my kidneys.

In each case above, the hiker I helped appeared younger, fitter, and probably faster than I was. Each of them also had a much smaller pack with less stuff in it than mine.

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I call situations like these "carrying one's security in someone else's pack"...


Historical note for non-climbers: When climbers were switching from pitons to nuts/chocks, a number carried pitons in their packs because they weren't yet confident that nuts could do the job. This was known as carrying one's security in one's pack...

Doug