EMS not standing behind their products

I think your experience with EMS was unusual. I have never had a problem. Well, one time a store I don't usually go to was reluctant to take back a poorly designed pack, but I reminded them that "my Manchester store" had already discussed my return with them to make sure the replacement pack I wanted was in stock there and I said that I would walk around the store (shopping) while they decided what they wanted to do. I had gone in with confidence that my request was reasonable and right and that I wasn't expecting a difficult time. I also think it "pays" to have a relationship established with the stores you go to. Even in this huge world of ours, it's possible to be recognized as a "regular" which can sometimes smooth things out. This is a tough economy and I bet they see people taking advantage of their returns policy all the time. It must be difficult for them and can lead to occasional "bad hair" days.

I think it depends on the failure. In the case of my boots, I had hiked in them numerous times but wouldn't consider them abused. Almost half of one heel separated and fell off. I took it back to the store because I'd never seen a boot come apart like that, and the salesman confirmed that a particular batch of these boots were known to fail in this manner.

I agree that people shouldn't abuse return policies, but in the case of equipment failure it doesn't hurt to ask.

dug said:

I personally think we have ourselves to blame. Too many times people have abused the system, with threats of "LL Bean will take it back, no matter what". It puts retailers, especially smaller ones, at a disadvantage. We're forced to take back a product, and at times just throw it in the trash, all for "customer service".

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TCD said:

He broke the socket (of course), and returned it Sears for a replacement. Only pennies, but it never struck me as "right." It struck me "freeloading."

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Are we to blame, or are the stores/manufacturers to blame? I didn't ask them to provide a 100% satisfaction guarantee. And if they offer said guarantee, I'm not supposed to take advantage of it when the need arises? And I'm supposed to "spread the love" and buy items from places that don't offer a guarantee because the LL Beans and Craftsmans of the world have pulled market share form their competitors because they still believe that the customer is always right?

And smaller retailers are not at a disadvantage if they know how to do customer service the right way. I shop at a local sporting goods store for hockey equipment because I know that if my sons' skates or helmet don't fit just right, the store owner will make it right. He's passionate about the sport, knows that equipment is expensive and that we're not made of gold, and wants all of his customers to be happy. I'll drive by 6 other places and pay a little more for the knowledge and expertise, a friendly smile, and personal service. Maybe more retailers should focus on that aspect of "customer service".

And to further illustrate this point: I once tried to return a sweater at EMS in Worcester that I had received as a Christmas present and was told I was told I could only get a refund on the garment at it's current price (on clearance for $6.50) despite the fact I was holding the original sales receipt listing the sale price as $24.50 from 3 weeks prior. I asked if I could get the full-price refund as a store credit and was denied. I donated the sweater to good will and buy all of my gear elsewhere now.

bjc said:

I just returned a pair of two-year-old Garmont boots to EMS, without a receipt, and they gave me a new pair. A chunk of the heel was gouged out after a recent hike.

The first person I spoke with said there was nothing they could do. Luckily for me, another employee came by as I was about to leave and intervened. He said that there had been a bad batch of these boots about 2-3 years ago, so they had seen the problem before.

I would ask to see the manager if you're not satisfied with a sales person's response.

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Were they the "Flash" we had two pair. My wife's have held up well, mine lasted one season. I took them back to the EMS in Buffalo with the receipt, the best they offered was 50% off my next pair. I was disappointed in that response and choose to purchase their replacements some where else.

I've always had a good experience with EMS. In general I have found their house brands to be a decent value. They aren't Mountain Hardware, but they aren't half the product either at one-third the price. I like supporting a NH-based company, which REI is not (and they haven't any stores in NH.) The quality of the EMS brands is definitely better than most (not all) of the stuff you can find at your BigBoxMart store.

I seem to recall a certain employee of EMS and one-time frequenter of this and other boards mentioning that they had to tighten up the policy because it was being badly abused.

Tim

When I first shopped in EMS in Rochester years ago I was delighted. The sales staff was knowledgeable and eager to help. They even replaced a broken hiking pole when I offered to buy a new one.

The new store isn't as impresive from a sales/service point of view. It looks great and has a lot of inventory but has lost the warm fuzzy feeling that they care. I don't go out of my way to shop there.

Now Gander Mountain is a farther drive. Their prices are good along with the quality and have been very helpfull.

I hope EMS read this string.

There has been a change in policy at EMS. It used to be that a receipt was not required and that they had a 100% satisfaction guaranteed warranty that was about as good as L.L. Bean, REI, etc. Now, based on a friend's experience returning boots that blew out after very little & light use, and my experience returning a pair of EMS bibs that blew out because of a poor design. In both cases, both EMS stores resisted helping and we had to steadfastly & doggedly complain to the manager.

(EMS used to make good-quality, house-brand outerwear designed for use in the mountains, such as alpine Gore-tex jackets & bibs. No longer.)

If a piece of gear or clothing fails, I usually will do everything I can to repair it myself before filing a warranty claim. But, I have no tolerance for companies whose customer service does not bend over backwards to stand by their product and honor their warranties. I will no longer shop EMS and I discourage others from doing so, too.

Companies that have outstanding customer service, such as Voile (the best I've ever experienced) and L.L. Bean, have earned my undying loyalty & patronage.

Interesting. A few years ago, they changed their branding with the intention of returning more to their roots and getting away from selling TNF fleeces to mall shoppers. Or so the story goes.

I haven't returned anything or had a problem in a while. The closest thing would be a broken MSR binding (the black strap which wraps the boot was frayed) and they offered to contact MSR to get a replacement as they had nothing in stock, or they said I could do it and get the parts sent directly to me. I did the latter as it was more convenient, but they did offer to take care of things.

Tim

In addition to finding great customer service at the EMS store I regularly frequent, I also always check out the section of their stores where they offer damaged, returned product at a reduced rate. REI does this at their "Garage Sales" but I don't know if LL Bean offers this opportunity, except to employees.

I think EMS has turned their product line to offer more that outdoor enthusiasts are looking for, but it would be silly of them not to be looking to catch the eye of mall shoppers, too, especially if their store (such as the Manchester EMS) is located in a mall setting. REI and LL Been sell a lot of clothing that is for street wear and not just for the hard core athlete. It makes good business sense, don't you think?

EMS has described the Harvard Square Cambridge store as their flagship store but I have found it to be the most disappointing of the lot. It's clear that they are catering to the student population. There seems to be more yoga wear than hiking.

I've heard from some that the Boston store employees don't seem to know much about what they are selling, but I haven't been there in a long time.
The Concord NH store is far superior. I haven't been to the one in Manchester.

smitty77 said:

Are we to blame, or are the stores/manufacturers to blame? I didn't ask them to provide a 100% satisfaction guarantee. And if they offer said guarantee, I'm not supposed to take advantage of it when the need arises? And I'm supposed to "spread the love" and buy items from places that don't offer a guarantee because the LL Beans and Craftsmans of the world have pulled market share form their competitors because they still believe that the customer is always right?

And smaller retailers are not at a disadvantage if they know how to do customer service the right way. .

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Smaller stores are absolutely at a disadvantage. Simple thing like buying power. I once had that slob come in with a pair of Timberland boots that were about ten years old. The sole came off. Not sh** it was coming off, they were worn out. I refused to give him his money back, instead offering to send them to corporate to if they'd give him something back. Instead, he dropped several f-bombs, caused a scene, left the store, and I never saw him back.

And, my point, is that yes, taking advantage of a guarantee only eats into the profits of a company. Those profits have to get restored somewhere...higher prices. Don't believe me? Fine, but I set the margins on some of the shoes. One brand of ladies shoes takes 0% of their work back. No matter what. Instead, they planned onf something like 8% failure and discounted the price 8%. It was a joke.

100% satisfaction guarantee is something to hide behind. If that were the case, I'd never buy anything ever again. I'm in fully behind supporting manufacturer's defects, poor workmanship, or shoddy design. Returning crap just because I bought the wrong size, it wore out, or I just didn't like the color, I will not do. Satisfaction guarantee or not.

Had a problem with my Montrails after only about a half dozen hikes. Took them back to my local EMS and the manager (I think) agreed that it was a defect, but said he had to send them back to have them evaluate whether to repair or replace...it was November, so I didn't balk too much at that. It did tick me off that he said I had to take them home and clean them before he would send them out, or there would be a cleaning charge. (They only had some surface dirt, I always get the mud off them after each hike.) But when I still didn't have my boots back (or replaced) in January, after a couple of follow up calls, I was starting to get pi$$ed.

Finally got them to agree to replace them, and when they came in they were not the wide width. So another wasted 40 mile round trip to Ithaca. Store manager ended up locating a pair in my size at a Connecticut store. Connecticut store had them delivered to my door in two days.

So, as with most any retail operation, it's hard to tell if it's company policy, poor training, clueless staff, or a combination. I can guarantee that I won't be buying my next pair of boots from that EMS...and mostly likely not any other EMS.

In the interest of fairness, I have received good service and information at both the Lake Placid and Saratoga Springs stores...

I prefer the Concord store and the Nashua Store myself. Concord is on the way to/from the Whites and Nashua is not too far from my office. Manchester, being in the mall, clearly has a bit of a different target (besides being a smaller store.)

Tim

I’ve shopped at a number of EMS stores in the area. In my opinion, the best of the bunch is their Concord, NH store. The staff knows their stuff and they are very helpful. At times it seems EMS policy gets in their way and prevents them from doing what they would like to do for the customer. The staff at other EMS locations could learn a lot from this store.

The Peterborough store is second in line. I’ll go to the Nashua or Manchester store if I know exactly what I want and have checked local inventory to verify it’s in stock.

I have experience with returned products to a couple locations, both good and bad. I’m convinced the key to a good or bad experience is the person on the other side of the counter.

erugs said:

I also always check out the section of their stores where they offer damaged, returned product at a reduced rate.

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That's why I don't have a lot of experience returning stuff, as most of my gear from the Peterborough store has an "X" on the label or logo as it was previously returned merchandise, and is not returnable.

The Peterborough staff is very good!

dug said:

I personally think we have ourselves to blame. Too many times people have abused the system, with threats of "LL Bean will take it back, no matter what". It puts retailers, especially smaller ones, at a disadvantage. We're forced to take back a product, and at times just throw it in the trash, all for "customer service".

I'm not saying that was the case here. It probably wasn't. But, corporations are losing money and profits are dwindling. I'm sure the clerk/manager went overboard with the directive to stop taking everything back. If you fight it, you will win.

Next time someone is proud to return something that has been worn and abused for several years, think of the long term ramifications of those actions.

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I understand that it is a 2-way street but I do agree with Dug for most of it.
When I was at EMS they were in process of changing the return policy - not the guarantee, but the way of handling return items.

At one point employees were told to be more discerning with the returns. If it is broken, offer to fix it first or contact the manufacturer. If the customer does not want it fixed then offer an exchange. If that is not possible then offer a refund as a last resort. But all of this could still be under the umbrella of an individual employee's discretion. This is where you get the gray area and differing experiences depending on the salesperson's personal views on your return. And trust me, after you've seen one too many customers returning ridiculous things you can't help but to be biased to the side of rejecting a refund.

Here are some stories:

Customer 1: Bought a sleeping bag. He pulled the bag's tag (the one sewed into the bag's feet) and the stitching ripped out where he pulled the tag. He wanted a new bag although he obviously had damaged his bag. The Assistant Manager refused a new bag and offered to fix it. Customer wanted a new bag, was not happy, got very pissed, was swearing, threatening to return all his previously bought EMS bags from over the years. Stormed off, called the corporate office, corporate calls store and says to give the customer what he wants. Yay.

Customer 2: Bought a kayak. Used it for 3 years and decided he didn't want it anymore. Came in with the used kayak filled with sand, had a receipt, and got a refund for full value. He only received the refund because he talked to the manager and the manager knew that Customer 2 would just act like Customer 1 and there's no way of winning this battle.

Because of crap like this EMS was forced to rethink their return policy, unfortunately creating this huge gray area and inconsistency. It's sad.

I'm not here judging everyone's returns but I guess my tip is to call the corporate office if you don't get want you want at the store. Sigh.

dug said:

I personally think we have ourselves to blame. Too many times people have abused the system, with threats of "LL Bean will take it back, no matter what". .

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Actually the Board screwed this one up. They allowed the company to become lost in a sea of meaningless messages then handed control to a new CEO who launched in a new and poorly-informed direction and now they are back to floundering with painful debt levels and directionless marketing. And this usually causes short-term missteps like not honoring commitments to customers.

That being said, the folks at my local store are awesome and do their very best to serve the public need. I'm certain you'll find someone to step up and care and do what's right.

They can still make EMS work, they have great locations and a strong brand - they just need to borrow more common sense and less money.

I would like to give props to the Marlborough, Mass EMS. I have never had a problem when it came time to return something. They have always honored their return policy with no questions asked.

Oddly, the only really negative store experience I've ever had was with Peterborough. I broke an MSR snowshoe. It was my fault. I was not looking for a freebie. I called to ask if they had any in stock and they did, but only on the website. I asked if I could buy them from the store and they said sure, but I'd have to drive out. Well I did, and in the snow, and then they didn't want to sell them to me because they were conducting inventory that day. It took me 30 minutes to convince them to sell me these shoes.

Tim

I've not been overly impressed with EMS' handling of warranty issues. I once brought a daypack in for repairs to the Burlington, VT store (outside of the one in Conway, one of their better ones). It was clearly defective, yet they told me it would have to be repaired and not replaced - a process which would take about 2 months. I asked them if they had any loaner packs in the meantime, and they said no.

I still buy from EMS, but it has to be a big sale discount.

In comparison - I recently bought a pair of MH's Nima pants from REI with my dividend, and like most MH gear, these are superbly designed with built-in zip on/off gaiters. It had a sew-in belt, with a proprietary buckle. After 3 wearings, one side of the buckle was lost, so one Sunday I emailed REI to see if they would mail me a replacement. I was startled to get a reply back in about an hour, saying a new pair was in the mail, and that I'd receive a pre-paid label to return the other pair. About 4 days later the new ones arrived in the mail.

As far as I was concerned, that kind of customer service was a bit above and beyond, as I would have settled for a $.50 replacement buckle. But, maybe it was easier for REI to handle it this way. In any case, it's up to them as to how to best handle it, but I was impressed.