Northeast 111/115 & AMC poll

Should the AMC be allowed to run the 111/115ers or should the members run it (as in the past) please view the thread (link below):

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=3619

the AMC should only be a last resort!

it is obvious that you will be lost in the bureaucratic shuffle for 6 months if it is run by the impersonal AMC (as are the new hampshire 48, new england 67 and new england 100 highest).

when run by members, if the individual running it does not do a good job he can be replaced (just try to change the individual under AMC rule). the AMC should only be a last resort

>>Consequently, I favor a volunteer committee, such as the 4000 Footer Committee, rather than the AMC,<<
the 4000 footer comittee is not independent of the AMC - if you own the patches please look at them (if you do not let me know and i will e-mail you a picture) - on all the 4000 footer patches clear as can be is the "AMC", also on all thier correspondence is "AMC" - the 4000 footer comittee is not independent of the AMC.

Perhaps what Kevin is getting at is that it isn't the professional staff of Joy St. that runs the committee. Rather it is a group of volunteers that care a great deal about peakbagging and such matters, and happen to be members of the AMC.

If you have beef with a certain person, say so, but let's not pretend this is the evil hand of the AMC (its evil hand is too busy with other things to care about this).

and while I realize that ADK is used for the both the ADK 46r club and the Adirondack Mountain Club, I find it ironic that it hasn't been mentioned that the 46r patch says ADK on it.

spencer

"ADK" is not used exclusively by the "adirondack mountain club" - it is used as an abreviation for "adirondacks" - - - the adirondack mountain club (amc) could not use thier real initials sinc the "Applachian Mountain Club" already owned those initials (AMC) so they chose to use an abbreviation of adirondacks instead (ADK) - - - in no way is the adirondack mountain club connected with the new york climbing lists as the "AMC" is in new england - all lists in new york are independent - - - - now please explain what the AMC on your 48er & 67er stands for if my logic is incorrect?

Ken - I think you need to research this a little more. The individuals on the 4000 footer committee - Gene Daniell, Dean Morrison, Steve Smith, Lynn Beatty, Eric Savage (maybe others) may belong to the AMC, but this committee is not an official part of the AMC. <<

>>to the best of my knowledge, they're volunteer-run and not associated with the official organization. <<

>>The AMC doesn't run the 4000 Footer Committee now, despite the sentiments expressed in this thread.<<



in the above quotes (all from the same "poster") are trying to get everyone to believe that the 4000 footer committee members are just members of the AMC who also work on the 4000 footer comittee - this is not the case - on all the 4000 footer stationary it states "Applachian Mountain Club Four Thousand Footer Club" - clearly a part of the AMC - i have nothing against the AMC - i do however believe that the 111ers should be seperate as they were in the past, due to the time lapse everyone experiences dealing with the 4000 footer committee - - - - - - anyone that is not a member of the 4000 footer clubs please note - - if you need proof that the amc is running the 4000 footer clubs let me know and i will send you a picture of the patches, letterheads and mailing labels to squelch the arguments that the AMC has nothing or everything to do with the 4000 footer club>>

The Adirondack 46ers are a separate incorporated entity completely independent of the Adirondack Mountain Club. The use of ADK on the patch for the 46ers references the Adirondacks and not the Adirondack Mountain Club. While ADK has used those initials since at least 1923, the use of these letters in the patch of the 46ers does not indicate an organizational affiliation. (One cannot place a trademark on a three letter combination, only on a specific design employing three letters.) While many members of ADK are 46ers and vice versa this is simply because both organizations appeal to hikers in the Adirondacks. There are also quite a large number of Adirondack 46ers that are not members of ADK. The 46ers are entirely supported by the membership dues and donations of their members and sales of 46er items.
By contrast, the AMC 4000 footer committee is a committee of the Appalachian Mountain Club and not separately incorporated.
I was always under the assumption that the NE 111ers were an unincorporated association. The booklets which we received refer to a 111ers of Northeastern USA committee consisting of Priscilla, Mildred Gittinger, and Roy Donahue.

Boy, I think you guys have too much time on your hands!

Hike however you enjoy it, when & where you choose. If you want to do a list of 46, 48, 67, 111, 115, or 10,000, go ahead! I think anyone who's bad-mouthing Gene Daniel should find a better use of their time. This man has made huge contributions to the peakbagging community, and should be respected for that.
Does it really matter who mails you a patch, or how soon it comes? Let's leave the politics out of it. Maybe I'm naive, but I suspect the AMC isn't really trying to take over the world.

>By contrast, the AMC 4000 footer committee is a committee of the Appalachian Mountain Club and not separately incorporated.<<
some here refuse to believe that

>>I was always under the assumption that the NE 111ers were an unincorporated association. The booklets which we received refer to a 111ers of Northeastern USA committee consisting of Priscilla, Mildred Gittinger, and Roy Donahue.<<
well... we know priscilla is out - how can we contact mildred or roy? this "club" should remain un-affiliated

>>Boy, I think you guys have too much time on your hands!<<
Boy. Isn't that why we hike?

>>I think anyone who's bad-mouthing Gene Daniel should find a better use of their time. This man has made huge contributions to the peakbagging community, and should be respected for that.<<
"think"? - think again... he has made a large contribution - gene hasn't been bad mouthed - he has just taken on too much - that is why the new england finishers have such a long wait - he was taking care of 3 lists by himself and refuses help! now he is taking on 4 lists

>>Does it really matter who mails you a patch, or how soon it comes? <<
yes it does - everytime someone i know finishes they are begging me to give up some of my patches - the latest is harry (congratulations harry) just last saturday he was begging for one - that is because the AMC does not have the time to devote to it - one man does them all - it is time to give the man some help

>>Let's leave the politics out of it.<<
that's why we don't want the political AMC to have them all

>>Maybe I'm naive, but I suspect the AMC isn't really trying to take over the world.<<
not the world - just anything to do with new england hiking - to do the 111 you have to leave new england for awhile

It's not a matter of badmouthing Gene Daniells or the AMC. It's a matter of trying to make the Club better at this turning point in the 111ers history. Ken and myself have both expressed serious interest here in becoming involved with the Club and others have expressed interest as well. I hope to bring this past the category of idle internet chatter. The poll results are pretty overwhelming right now and if it continues along these lines, we will contact Gene Daniells and hopefully be able to set up a meeting where we can talk things over. I know I'd love to work with Gene Daniells as he is a Northeast peakbagging legend and a 111er as well. Hopefully we can come to a resolution that will make everyone happy.

ken said:

[Bin the above posts (all from the same "poster")

Click to expand...

Is Ken implying that Kevin and I are the same person?

my goodness.

spencer

Exactly who would be running the club when it refers to members, how does this happen and why is it more advantageous than a proven entity, by which I specifically refer to the 4000 Footer Committee?

Does it ever occur to anyone that too much formality and organizing these "list clubs" tends to detract from them? We wind up arguing and grousing about how quickly we receive our trophies rather than enjoying and being satisfied in the sense of personal accomplishment that is supposed to be central to the whole thing.

Silly.

G.

Yes,but.....

People want the patch, they wear/display the patch and the certificate (well, I guess they don't wear the certificate, but you get my drift)

And..........................it shouldn't take 6 months to get a patch/certificate which is what will happen if transferred as proposed. I speak from experience. This WILL happen.

I figure it shouldn't take longer to get the patch than it took to make the climbs. That would be about:

5 days for ADK46

5 days for NH4K (10 days for winter)

10 days for NE67

16 days for 115

This is using Cave Dog standard speed plus or minus (I fudged the NE67):

ps. for the humor impaired, I am kidding about the times, but not the basic point about sloooooowing down the process.

I agree with Ken C.

I can confirm that the patch for the 770 Northeast US 3000 footers does not have an "AMC" on it AND, (if Dennis agrees) you won't get this patch from the AMC.

I think it was Stan that asked why it would be better to go with 111 Club members than a proven entity like the Four Thousand Footer Committee. Good question.

From my perspective, the simple fact of the matter at this point in time is that the AMC and Gene Daniells have the Club. That's the way Priscilla Robertson wanted it and that's the way things have developed up to this point. I don't really think there's anything that could be said that would make Gene Daniells simply say "OK guys, here's the Club, Good luck." But if some Club members (Ken, me and anyone else who wants to be involved) go to him with good ideas and express a desire to work with him, we stand a good chance of keeping the Club from being absorbed by the Four Thousand Footer Committee.

Like I said in another post, I think a small Catskill Cannister-type newsletter would be cool. I'd like to be involved in that aspect myself. There could be: submissions from 111 climbers; news about new finishers and what past finishers are up to; news about changes in peaks or Forest Service policies that would be of interest to climbers etc etc. Ken is interested in patches and correspondence and would certainly get things out quickly! Other volunteer oportunities could include merchandise, web design and whatever else ANY Club member might want to be involved with.

The alternative is the status quo, where the 111ers simply become another Club under the purview of the Four Thousand Footer Committee. We all know how the FTFC runs its clubs and if that's acceptable to you, then fine. But we can have the best of both worlds if we do it right ... the experience of Gene Daniells PLUS the enthusiasm of Club members.

Right on, John! Think BIG when it comes to Northeast peak lists and have the grand vision of John Swanson who took on ALL the Northeast 3000 footers in whatever order they fell. And we'll even come out to your final peak (save a nice one) and present you with your patch. We figure anyone who completes a list this "whacky" deserves the best.

>>Exactly who would be running the club when it refers to members, how does this happen and why is it more advantageous<<
this does not "happen" it has been that way till may 2004 - one person was responsible for it - not a large organization (and it worked better than the 3 run by the large organization) - - - i wasn't looking for an advantage over priscilla when i volunteered to do it - i was looking for the advantage over the AMC (they are overwhelmed by too many lists for one guy to run "promptly")

>> than a proven entity, by which I specifically refer to the 4000 Footer Committee?<<
"proven entity", "comittee" - we do not need a committee - the committee is to decide on the peaks that qualify - the northeast 111ers do not decide what qualifies - 111 uses everyone elses rules as to what ones qualify as 4000 footers (the AMC 4000 footer club, the adirondack 46ers and the catskill 3500 club) - these are the ones that set the standards of what is what height and how far away to be a peak - all put together there are 115 needed to qualify for the 111 - - the AMC 4000 footer club is the entity that does your mailing once you qualify for new england peaks and so far they have proven that they are overwhelmed by the 3 lists that they now handle and need help - 4-6 months is too long - many wonder if thier correspondence got lost in the mail while waiting

>>I agree with Ken C<<
i don't see "Ken C" maybe he deleted his post

>>the need to possess a patch ASAP represents a sentiment incompatible with that expressed by those who founded the club<<
i couldn't tell you about that - it was founded many years ago - i do not know them - do you? - - - the last person to run it was very, very prompt in all correspondence

>>there's a lot more to hiking than certificates and patches<<
>>I like my patches too, but I don't really care how long they take to arrive in the mail.<<
there are many who do care how long they take (i always have guys begging for patches from me for the 48 & 67 to be replaced when they get thiers in 4-6 months) - how long do you wait to decide if it is time to contact gene to see if he ever got what you sent, or ever sent out what you needed?


>>has such contempt for anything or anyone remotely connected to the AMC.<<
no contempt - i am an AMC member and think that they do a lot of good (i would not give them my $50 if i didn't like them - i do not belong to the ADK) - - the AMC is just too big to really care about us, as is evident by the "time warp" (AMC has one guy burdened with 3 lists) - i even really like gene, he is a nice guy, (he just takes on too much).

>>shouts in bold<<
look closer... i am seperating the questions from the answers (since there are so many questions) - not shouting in bold.