cutting deadfall across a trail

Is there a rule about cutting deadfall across a trail, either an official trail or a herd path? I understand there are legal or Leave No Trace ethical prohibitions on cutting live trees or brush in the Adirondacks. However, trail crews and or DEC personnel routinely cut deadfall across trails. If a recreational hiker comes upon a tree or branch across a trail that can not be pulled off, and then pulls his/her trusty Sven Saw out of his/her pack to cut the tree or branch so it can be removed from the trail, has the recreational hiker broken a legal or ethical rule?

I don't know about any of the rules, but I do know that the Sven Saw is the cream of the crop as far as lightweight, collapsable saws go. They slice through limbs like a hot, knife through soft butter and are very packable.

explorer13421 said:

Is there a rule about cutting deadfall across a trail, either an official trail or a herd path? I understand there are legal or Leave No Trace ethical prohibitions on cutting live trees or brush in the Adirondacks. However, trail crews and or DEC personnel routinely cut deadfall across trails. If a recreational hiker comes upon a tree or branch across a trail that can not be pulled off, and then pulls his/her trusty Sven Saw out of his/her pack to cut the tree or branch so it can be removed from the trail, has the recreational hiker broken a legal or ethical rule?

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No, but you may get a few Thank-you's

There is no problems cutting deadfall on marked trails. I would not do this on herd paths though. Usually a trail has a maintainer but any little extra help like that will always be appreciated.

I always liked using my trusty axe for that job. Certainly gives the trails a more rustic feel.

-percious

Let's put it this way: If you are a resident of the State then you are as much of a steward of the land as one of your employees (DEC, etc.).

Cutting deadfall anywhere (trail, herdpath or in the middle of nowhere) is perfectly reasonable (and legal as far as I know - except on private property).

So, saw away....nothing makes me happier than a sawed-off horizontal tree at the edge of a trail!

As an old time resident of Manlius, NY, I am delighted to agree with smh444.

G.

smh444 said:

Cutting deadfall anywhere (trail, herdpath or in the middle of nowhere) is perfectly reasonable (and legal as far as I know - except on private property).

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As far as I know, this is not true. While I don't think you'd have any problems cutting a blowdown across a maintained trail, you certainly could be in trouble for doing unauthorized maintainence of an abandoned, closed, or unauthorized trail on National Forest land.

-dave-

Dave, you're most likely right. I got carried away with rootin' for a home boy.

Prudence certainly is the real watchword here.

G.

Don't know about National Forests. In NYS, the only rule I could find concerns firewood: "Use only dead and down wood for fires. Cutting standing trees is prohibited. " (DEC website on backcountry camping). This makes sense; if "dead and down wood" crosses your path, then move it, cut it, burn it, etc.

I agree that prudence is in order...as is a bit of common sense.

It is ilegal to cut downed trees over herd paths in National and State lands. They are not marked trails. By doing that you only encourage the use of that path. By doing that you are considered making a trail and in order to make a trail on public land you need permission and it can be a long process. You can move trees that are in your path just not cut. You can cut any felled tree for the use of firewood, you just cant do it for a herdpath. I agree it is nice having a herd path cleared of down trees but that takes away from the off trail experince. I would rather struggle a little to a trail- less peak. That is whole point of bushwhacking.

Cutting trees on marked trails is a great help for the parks and maintainers. You can always come down to Jersey and help cut some trees from the last 2 storms we had

smh444 said:

I agree that prudence is in order...as is a bit of common sense.

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Prudence usually = common sense in my book.

Just a note about the Adirondack High Peaks: As a matter of policy, the powers-that-be a while ago decided that each so-called "trailless" summit among the 46 should have one semi- or lightly-maintained "official herd path" to it. These paths are not maintained by the state trail crews, as far as I know. The 46ers (Pete Hickey and company) have been setting out and cutting out these routes for a few years. Common sense whispers in my ear that it should be OK -- at least ethical -- for those who use them to keep those paths open.

G.

I'm not sure, but I think I might disagree with the logic that says it's OK to move, but not OK to cut, a down tree on a herd path. On the surface, there seems to be some logic, but the conclusions that come out when you follow it seem counterintuitive.

1. I'm camped in the wilderness, with a bunch of dead downed trees around. I want to cut one for firewood, or a seat, or whatever. I need to pick the one that's NOT on the herd path, so I don't make the herd path look like it's being maintained?

2. There's a downed dead tree on the herd path. I can push it aside, and lay it along the side of the path. So I do. Doesn't this make the path "look maintained?"

3. Big John and Little Willy both hike, on separate paths. There are trees on the herd paths they are using. Big John is strong enough to move the trees. Little Willy isn't, so he would rather cut them. So it's now legal for Big John to "maintain" his path, but illegal for Little Willy to "maintain" his?

I'm not sure about this...

TCD

Okay, I'll be a dissenter here. what's wrong with a little blowdown, it leaves "a little" charm and variation to a hike. Climbing over or ducking under occasional trees sometimes can add a little fun to an otherwise BORING trail section. MANY (not all, but many) trails are so well maintained, they might as well be friggin paved.

I personally don't see a huge ethical violation if a hiker "feels compelled" to move/cut/destroy/annihilate every forlorn little branch or tree that happens to fall in the path, but I also don't see a huge need for it either. An obvious exception would be huge deadfall, that creates a physical hazard or is such an impediment that it causes other to create "new" work around trails, which is BAD.

For the most part though, I consider it part of the adventure to negotiate natural obstacles along the trail. On maintained trails, it obvious, someone needs to go in every year to keep the path free of major obstructions, but I don't see a huge need for someone to be out there whacking away at every branch the second it hits the ground.

Look at it like this, like many, I mumbled, grumbled and swore my way through the herd paths to Cliff and Couch (ADK's) while doing em', but ya know what, you gotta admit, those paths/peaks have some serious character (personality even). The VanHo route up Marcy (to the treeline anyway), has about as much character as I-87 for me.

That's just my opinion. btw, this is for trails only, I strongly feel that if you decide to color "outside the lines", you need to leave the permanent markers at home

mavs00 said:

I personally don't see a huge ethical violation if a hiker "feels compelled" to move/cut/destroy/annihilate every forlorn little branch or tree that happens to fall in the path, but I also don't see a huge need for it either. . . .

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This comment really is a key to the whole thing.

I don't think anyone has suggested that hikers are obliged to clear blowdown from trails as they go.

The discussion here started with a query as to whether or not it is legal or ethical to do so. I believe many of us think it's probably ethical to remove blowdown (including sawing it out of the way) on established or "authorized" paths. We have a lot more more doubts when it comes to true informal herd paths.

And many of us still wonder if we'll go to the slam (so to speak) if we're caught cutting the King's blowdown out of the way anywhere.

G.

I don't carry any cutting equipment, but there are many times I wish I did. Those times are when there is a blow down across the path, and a new path has been formed around it. I think it would be appropriate to reopen the main trail and use the cut material to block the detour? Of course, this is for maintained trails only. The rerouting of herd paths by blowdowns is part of the bushwhacking process and experience.

Tony

Ditto, Mavs.

This thread is interesting. I don't hike on herd paths or trails a lot of the time. I do a lot of map and compass travel, so overcoming obstructions, both "hazardous" and "forlorn" is routine and expected.

It took a while, but now we have a clear dichotomy in the thread:

Is the development of "new" work around trails:

"BAD";

or "part of the bushwhacking process and experience"?

Let's talk about that!

TCD

trail work

Get out there and contribute. Pete Hickey and all the 46er trailmasters would love to see more new blood helping out. The core group of 46er trail workers are as fine a bunch of folks as you'll ever meet in the woods. Don't take my word for it, just come and join in, you'll see.

Actions speak louder than words.

Mike G.

Mike, I think the drift of the question that opened this thread was in the direction of whether and how individuals might help keep trails and routes open as they go. That strongly hints at a desire to pitch in, or “contribute” as you put it.

To me, individual stewardship is a cornerstone of making or keeping our world a decent place, whether we’re in town or out in the boonies. Structured and organized stewardship activity is great, and we all should commend Pete Hickey and the 46ers for their efforts. But rather than chiding those who are interested in being stewards on their own to join groups, why not provide constructive direction to help them achieve good ends in their way?

I think that’s really what this thread is about.

G.