Ice tools

AOC-1 said:

I don't agree with this recommendation. Mountaineering axes combined with a tool are fine for ice slopes up to about 45 - 50 degrees. Anything steeper and you will be very glad to have 2 tools.

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Actually, one can climb up to ~70 degree ice with a single (~70 cm) mountaineering axe. However, it can be easier with a second tool.

One can stand in balance over one's feet on ice up to about the above angle. Once the ice pushes you off balance you need two tools--one tool to hang on while you remove and replace the other. (And maybe a spare (3rd) in case you drop or break one.)

BTW, an axe is also a tool...

Some general comments on technical axes/tools:
*Above about ~70 deg the 70cm axe becomes to unwieldy to use for piolet traction (above your head, see http://www.vftt.org/forums/showpost.php?p=167858&postcount=21) Tools for steeper terrain are generally 55cm or shorter.
* Straight shafts are better for snow and self arrest. (70cm is also better for self arrest than <=55cm.)
* A lot of the steeper terrain in NE is hard water ice--tools vary in how well they set in it. (Ie, get recommendations on tools from local climbers, don't just buy the cheapest.)
* Any axe/tool is a compromise and is better at some things than others. No single axe/tool is best at everything.

FWIW, I used to climb with a 70cm Chouinard Zero mountaineering axe with a graphite epoxy shaft, two 55cm Chouinard Zero North Wall Hammers also with graphite epoxy shafts (see http://www.coolclimbing.com/images/ice/equipment/chouinard_frostaxes03.jpg for a picture of the heads), a Stubai ice hammer, and a Lowe tube pick ice hammer. (But not all at once... ) All shafts were straight. Worked fine for me on up to vertical ice.

Doug

DougPaul said:

Actually, one can climb up to ~70 degree ice with a single (~70 cm) mountaineering axe. However, it can be easier with a second tool.

One can stand in balance over one's feet on ice up to about the above angle. Once the ice pushes you off balance you need two tools--one tool to hang on while you remove and replace the other. (And maybe a spare (3rd) in case you drop or break one.)

Doug

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A few years back I spoke with a guide (and proficient ice climber) about vertical ice climbing technique.

He frequently practices his technique (top rope) on vertical ice without tools (bare gloves). It's more about balance and foot work than hanging off your arms.

FWIW, I think this thread is mixing mountaineering and ice climbing. Generally speaking, if you're climbing mountains you don't want ice tools. If you're climbing ice you do. It's that gap in the middle that folks will disagree on.

woodsxc said:

Thanks Nartreb! I'm really looking at Gothics as the technical high point of the season (Katahdin would be the biggest expedition).

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With the exchange rate, you might be able to buy these brand new for your max (sorry, I didn't noticed if your max was 100 for both or 100 each):

Grivel X Monster (102$ CDN): http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_...4442619857&FOLDER<>folder_id=2534374302691849

Grivel Alp Monster (102$ CDN): http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_...4442622600&FOLDER<>folder_id=2534374302691849

I have not tried either.

Fish

hikingfish said:

With the exchange rate, you might be able to buy these brand new for your max (sorry, I didn't noticed if your max was 100 for both or 100 each):

Grivel X Monster (102$ CDN): http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_...4442619857&FOLDER<>folder_id=2534374302691849

I have not tried either.

Fish

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I've gotten to swing X Monsters a few times at gear stores. They feel wicked.

There was a really good product video linked in one of the MEC reviews
X Monster Video with a couple pointers on technique.

I'm gonna see what D (climbing guide guy) says.

Hey Barrett, good to see you back posting here again. Did you need some time away from the "new" PnP already?

Regarding ice tools, the cheapest option for you might be to borrow or rent a tool for the climb or two you think you'll need it. (IIRC, The Mountaineer in Keene Valley rents ice tools for the day -- call 'em and see what their pricing is.) No sense dropping the coin on a set of X-Monsters if you're not going to be climbing WI regularly.

Gimme a heads-up when you're heading to the ADKs for Gothics NF. It's on the hit-list for my partner and me for this winter as well, and might be fun to try to hook up.

J.Dub said:

Regarding ice tools, the cheapest option for you might be to borrow or rent a tool for the climb or two you think you'll need it.

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This is IMO the best advice so far in this thread. What you land up liking for tools probably will be a personal prefrence and that will only be gained through experience. Who knows you might not even land up liking Ice Climbing..so why drop the bucks on something that may land up hanging on the garage wall. There are a few "Ice Festivals" both in New England and the Dacks. A great way to try before you buy. On another note buying on the cheap or buying the most expensive tools does not garantee optimal performance for a given individual's climbing efficiency.

J.Dub said:

Regarding ice tools, the cheapest option for you might be to borrow or rent a tool for the climb or two you think you'll need it.

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The only problem with this is that different tools may require different techniques and it may take more than one session to learn how to use an unfamiliar tool.

Still, it is a good idea. Perhaps the store will be willing to apply the rental fee toward purchase of the tool.

Doug

TEO said:

Where's Leaf?

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never too far away.

gothics north face is awesome. when craig, jeff and i did it, i brought both my axe and my two tools.. and believe it or not, i used all three. it all depends on the conditions at the time.. and your route selection as noted earlier. if i were to go back, i'd just bring my two tools. i feel like i can easily substitute my tool as an axe and not the other way around.

for katadin.. depends what route. it's the most desired place to find alpine lines and there's some great technical routes. although i have yet to get there in winter!!

anyway, my advice is to get the petzl aztars.. they are relatively cheap and are both decent on low angle mountaineering stuff and vertical ice. it's nice to have spike on the bottom for low angle, as you can use them as an axe.. and for getting on vertical for the first few times, it's really nice to have lightweight tools, in my opinion.

i just modified mine to be leashless and i'm no longer in the petzl nomic envy club. i've taken those babies on grade 5 mix. so you can "upgrade" them as you get more experienced by modifying them.

AOC-1 said:

What TCD said. I have climbed Gothics N. Face in all kinds of conditions, with and without tools. It's all conditions dependent. I would stay away from used tools. The picks are the first things to go and older model replacement picks are hard to find and expensive. Climbing even lower angle ice with worn-out picks is not fun. I'd go with new, less expensive, straighter shaft tools, unless you think you might want to climb steeper stuff at some point. If so, I'd bite the bullet now and get some state-of-the-art ice tools.

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i agree with this.. but not the "state-of-the-art".. the "new, less expensive, straighter shaft tools."

leaf said:

i'm no longer in the petzl nomic envy club.

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Did they make you turn in your membership card...?

J.Dub said:

Did they make you turn in your membership card...?

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They kicked me out. After I turned up the badass volume on my Aztars.

The final product.

No doubt I'll be getting the Nomics in the future, but I bought myself at least two ice seasons without really wanting (shall I go as far as saying "needing") them after I modified mine. So they will do just fine now in Huntington and 85% of the terrain I'll find myself on for now. I'll save the mixed/super steep/crazy ice til I get my skills up.