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Nadine said:
Roy, I really like the layout and how the peaks are depicted. Excellent graphics!!
Save your congratulations (and $$) for Aaron, my only input to the site was reviewing the New England component of the map.

A lot more people are making prominence lists and he has added several to the site, including a link to ME's site for the NEFF list.
 
The site looks great!

And it brought me back to the New England 50 most prominent (or finest) peaks. Do you guys feel like saying anything about the history of this list? When was it put together? Who is responsible? How many completers are out there? And of course, is there a patch?

It was only recently that I fully grasped the whole prominence concept, and only then did I find myself interested in the "list" as a nice group of peaks to climb. Many are our old favorites, others seem quite obscure.
 
Tramper Al said:
... others seem quite obscure.
To me that is one of the main attractions of that list (as well as of the county highpoints). A few delightful peaks that I would not have otherwise visited are East Monutain in VT, Black Mountain in the southern Adirondacks, Lyon Mountain in the northern Adirondacks (all are both COHP and FF) and a long weekend in the Berkshires doing state and county highpoints (Mount Greylock is also a FF peak).

Both lists (COHP and FF) contain peaks that I have no desire to visit, so I have no plans for completing anything beyond the NH and VT counties (aready done). But they will provide me with many worthwhile hikes that I would otherwise never have thought of.
 
Mohamed Ellozy said:
It is a great site (although it has actually been live since last September, though perhaps not much advertised). The original material by Aaron was on the CoHP site and it's nice that he now has his own site with expanded material.

Another great resource for prominence afficianados is Greg Slayden's Peakbagger.com. It has a dozens of lists which are backed by an astounding number of peaks (I think over 5000) in a database that covers the whole world. When I wanted to know the prominence of Slide, Hunter and Black Dome which I hiked last weekend, this is where I went.

And to me the coolest resource is Aaron's maps. Look at this one: Northeastern U.S. Prominence Map. What I find most interesting, besides the locations of these peaks, are the connecting devide lines (those wiggly red lines connecting the peaks). To me the subject of prominence leads to the discovery of where the saddles are, and that leads to the watershed devide lines. This gives a much more global perspective on the geography of the mountain ranges. As a peakbagger before I though about prominence, I worried about where a peak was and how to get to the top. Except for worrying about a few local features (cliffs, ridge lines, stream gullies,etc.) I didn't much fit a particular peak into the "big" picture. I think most peakbaggers are the same.

But now look at that map for a minute. When I first saw that, I said to myself "now why does that red line from Katahdin to Washington go way up across northen Maine, along the border and into Canada before dropping back into New Hampshire". Voilla! Watersheds!. First you need to go up between the West and East Branch of the Penobscot, then you need to squeeze between the head waters of the Kennebec to the South and the Allagash and St. Johns to the north, then you have to skirt around the Andoscoggin and get down south before you hit the Connecticut. Untill I really looked at this, I never realized how complex the river systems were in Maine - and really it's the same everywhere.

As for the NE FF, it's a cool list:

17 are 4000s
24 (including the above) are HH
All but 5 are 3000s
8 involve bushwhacks
and there are assorted CoHPs in there.

I started the list in 2003 (already having done about half for other pursuits) and will probably finish this year (9 more to go). Along the way Meo, Audrey & Pat, Tramper Al and Spencer have joined me here and there on the NE FF list, plus TeeJay who did Black Dome (a NY P2K) with me last weekend. Anyone else interested? - come along! I may do my last FF bushwhack at the Sepember gathering (Cold Hollow in Vermont).

Just do it!
 
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P2k of the US

If you want a list of all the US P2k peaks in one place, along with a tracker, here it is:

http://www.listsofjohn.com/USPro/USProIndex.php

This list uses averaged elevations to compute prominence so it will differ slightly from lists using clean/minimum prominence.

Note that I am not John and all I did for this site was post this message :)
 
now ya'll've gone and done it! you're gonna get me fired cause now i'll be lookin' at this instead of workin'! thanks a lot! :eek:

seriously--this is the jam! :) mad jam! :)
 
Who is doing P2Ks?

I know that Roy has done them long ago (he either compiled the list or participated in its compilation) and I believe that PB either finished it or is close.

Who else is interested in these peaks, and how seriously?

I am definitely "interested", and have in fact done all the NH P2Ks (finished last summer with Smart's Mountain and Mount Shaw). I may do all the remaining VT peaks, am probably too lazy (unmotivated is probably more accurate) to go to Maine as often as would be needed to complete those peaks.
 
Mohamed Ellozy said:
I know that Roy has done them long ago (he either compiled the list or participated in its compilation) and I believe that PB either finished it or is close....
Hi Mo

I finished the New England peaks last year. Actually I did several more - I think 8 sub P2ks - so as to bag the "New England 50 Finest". The link for it is in my signature.

But as for New York, I've only done the 3 in the Catskills. Still 10 more to do in the ADKs. Shame on me - a New Yorker and I've done 0 (that's zero) of the High peaks.

Always more to do.

BTW, I'm never against doing a peak more than once!
 
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Am I the only one in this camp? While the Prominence site provides some interesting information, I’m not really sure if the concept of prominence has much significance. If you look at the top 50 list, you can see several examples where the distance between mountains is so great as to be geographical insignificant from a human perspective related to foot travel; i.e., hiking or climbing.

You can see that the “saddle” between Denali and its next highest peak is in Nicaragua. One can only wonder what the significance would be in this case, particularly when it is stated in the sentence just before the Prominence definition that “summits can also be measured by their elevation relative to the surrounding terrain”. I’m not so sure that Nicaragua is part of the surrounding terrain near Denali but I’ve been wrong before. Rainier’s saddle is 450km away in British Columbia, K2’s is hundreds of miles away in northern Nepal, Kilimanjaro’s is in the Suez Canal and Kangchenjunga does not seem to have one but we know it is somewhere between it and Mt Everest.

While all of this is interesting in a contrived geographical sense and as curious mathematical oddities, I’m not sure that anything can be gleaned from this information so that it is really pertinent to hiking or mountaineering. Is it significant or is it list making for the sake of making lists?

JohnL
 
JohnL said:
Am I the only one in this camp? While the Prominence site provides some interesting information, I’m not really sure if the concept of prominence has much significance.

Well there is DC, who like me had climbed 49 of the New England 50 Most Prominent before the list came out, but unlike me apparently never climbed the 50th. There are a couple dozen people in the high 40s who also haven't bothered. My guess is that this is partly that the list is new and partly that you don't get a patch :)

If you look at the top 50 list, you can see several examples where the distance between mountains is so great as to be geographical insignificant from a human perspective related to foot travel; i.e., hiking or climbing.
As for whether a saddle located thousands of miles away has any meaning, probably not to a hiker except to make unattractive the idea of climbing each peak on the list from it's saddle. However the mathematicians like to talk about "dominance" and "prominence islands", the idea of the size of the area over which peak is prominent. (Aconcagua, the Americas; McKinley, North America; Washington, east of the Hudson; etc.) so far-away saddles make a peak more "dominant".

From a hiker's perspective, local prominence is more significant and for most peaks they are similar (Moosilauke from Kinsman Notch).

Prominence is not necessarily a good measure of visual impressiveness as most peaks are not visible from their saddles even if nearby. For that, do a search for "spire measure" :)

While all of this is interesting in a contrived geographical sense and as curious mathematical oddities, I’m not sure that anything can be gleaned from this information so that it is really pertinent to hiking or mountaineering. Is it significant or is it list making for the sake of making lists?

As to the merits of prominence-based lists vs. height-based lists, it is an
inside joke that the former are favored by mathematicians because they better lend themselves to theoretical concepts. Many of the more active members in the prominence discussion group hold advanced degrees in arcane sciences and one guy has apparently never climbed any mountains but just likes to talk about the theory. Prominence is also independent of units of measurement, the 4000-footers will seem like a strange concept a generation after the US goes to the Metric system and even the New England Hundred Highest will probably change so it no longer uses a 61-meter col requirement.
 
could it be....

thinking in bigger circles?
it's all relative in relation to a bigger picture.
what is the significance of earth itself in relation to the universe and other galaxies??
thinking and doing for curiousity? guess it's in the eyes of the beholder.
 
RoySwkr said:
Many of the more active members in the prominence discussion group hold advanced degrees in arcane sciences ...
Reminds me of a question that I have wanted to ask for a long time: Has anyone read Adam Helman's Prominence book? He is a mathematician, but he sure climbs the peaks on those lists :)
 
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