Fill in your divots!

sierra said:

Allow me to answer if I may. Before the internet, hikers would just go out and hike, they would encounter a variety of conditions and deal with them using whatever equipment and or skills they needed. The most beautifull part of those days, when the day was done, they relished in thier time in the mounatains and didnt waste any energy compaining about what others did or didnt do. Ah those where the days.

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Nice...I knew I could count on you!

I agree with Sierra. It is what it is. You've an awesome life if your biggest worry is the condition of a winter trail in the mountains. Count your blessings and quit yer bitchin'. Living Free has it's consequences.

sierra said:

Allow me to answer if I may. Before the internet, hikers would just go out and hike, they would encounter a variety of conditions and deal with them using whatever equipment and or skills they needed. The most beautifull part of those days, when the day was done, they relished in thier time in the mounatains and didnt waste any energy compaining about what others did or didnt do. Ah those where the days.

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Amen!

I just wish people would clean up their dog feces on the trail...mebbe bury it in the divots?

Mike P. said:

And if you take the side of the summer hikers, who make up the majority of the hikers but not posters here, the winter hikers who create the monorail by wearing their snowshoes prevent the snow from melting sooner so the majority of the people can use the trail without the hazard of the monorail.

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I'm guessing this was meant somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Still...

Perhaps a majority of the hikers, but probably not the majority of the hikes undertaken. It's probably one of those 80/20 things -- 20% of the hikers do 80% of the hikes.

Besides, how many trails really have significant monorail situations for summer hikers? Only the most popular (winter) trails develop monorails, and that only for the mud/bug season in May. By June 1, monorails aren't an issue, and they're never an issue on the 95% of trails that see little/no winter traffic. So we should ban hiking from December - April so that the ever-so-popular hiking month of May is alright?

I'm also not quite how a monorail presents a "hazard" beyond muddy and wet feet.

dug said:

I am being totally serious, and I do this rant every year this thread comes up, but:

-Why is it OK to demand that we don't posthole, but find it OK to slide down a trail, causing it to ice over and become dangerous?

-Why is it OK to break a trail in MSR snowhoes, causing more of an issue if I don't wear that brand?

-Why is it OK for everyone to take the same path, instead of trying to widen the trail to allow for skiing/bigger shoes?

-Why is it OK to use the BP bushwack, and take some crazy route that has a lot of curves in it, preventing me from skiing?

-Why is it OK that OK that we break the trail, but don't clean the snow off the branches for the taller hikers?

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I'll give answering your questions a shot...

Postholing -- for whatever reason people do it -- potentially creates a dangerous trail (ankle injuries, etc.), especially in March when soft snow tends to freeze hard.

Not cleaning snow off the upper branches does not add to the potential for injury. Not widening the path does not add to the potential for injury. (FWIW - I tend to widen the path and knock snow off of overhanging limbs.) Knocking off snow and widening the path may make it easier for the next guy, but failure to do so doesn't make it harder for the next guy. I think the postholing issue primarily comes from a (imagined or not) responsibility to not make the trail *more* dangerous for the next guy.

Sliding down a trail, while perhaps making it more icy, still allows for travel with appropriate footwear. In some cases, it removes unconsolidated snow and makes it easier to ascend. I can't remember a situation where someone butt sliding made a trail more difficult to travel, unless I hadn't brought traction. I can remember many situations where postholing made travel much more arduous and potentially injurious.

As far as MSRs goes, my snowshoes are substantially larger, and I've never really found it to be an issue. I'm not sure what you mean by the BP/ski thing, so I'll just stop here.

blacknblue said:

I'm guessing this was meant somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Still...

Perhaps a majority of the hikers, but probably not the majority of the hikes undertaken. It's probably one of those 80/20 things -- 20% of the hikers do 80% of the hikes.

Besides, how many trails really have significant monorail situations for summer hikers? Only the most popular (winter) trails develop monorails, and that only for the mud/bug season in May. By June 1, monorails aren't an issue, and they're never an issue on the 95% of trails that see little/no winter traffic. So we should ban hiking from December - April so that the ever-so-popular hiking month of May is alright?

I'm also not quite how a monorail presents a "hazard" beyond muddy and wet feet.

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While the 20% who winter hike, likely do hike more, I'd only be willing to give them credit for 50 -60% of the hikes. I've been on Osceola & passed over 100 people in the summer - we stoped counting at 100 - before but I was the only VFTT poster (pre ROT & The newer trail condition sites) The casual hiker & the serious summer hiker (they may downhill ski in the winter) just don't post online.

Off the top of my head, I've come across Memorial Day Weekend monorail on Carter Dome, Crawford Path, Osgood, Garfield Ridge (between Lafayette & Garfield) if you slip off the icy monorail, you could twist or sprain an ankle.

Tongue in cheek, sort of, but why people whine & think their method is better than others is silly. What's too deep to bare boot? In the ADK, that's decided by the authorities. Personally I'd need over a foot of snow to make snowshoes easier. If a trail is well packed & solid, I'd prefer barebooting without postholing, crampons if it's steep. It takes three or four post-holes for me to figure having an extra pound or two on my feet is a benefit.

On the glissading issue, if it's well packed & icy thanks to glissaders, crampons would be the preferred traction. You could end up making a posthole or two. (Why change out of crampons on an icy approach up the steep sections of East Osceola & swap into snowshoes just so you can swap back into crampons for the chimney on the way to Osceola)

I've created my share of postholes but never stepped in anyone elses, Isn't that a warning that the snowpack may not hold you? Step around them.... You want summer hikers, (who some seem to think are the amatuers) to avoid the monorail yet some real hikers, winter hikers are compalianing & name calling because they can't negotiate around a few post-holes? (Better turn in that I'm a real hiker T-shirt because It's hard to read, an "epic" trip report where you braved the elements & perservered to reach the summit & yet a few deep footprints set you off)

In the couple of small spruce traps that I've been in, snowshoes made getting out harder as they got tangled in the spruce.

I look at this whole issue this way, Our Moderator, who I am confident doesn't like post-holes either & has seen more than most of us, hasn't chimed him with his .02, smart guy. I have to admire people smarter than me who don't get caught up in the my way is right, that way is wrong debate. Most of those people, the ones I admire for being smarter than me, I've come to notice don't speak often. They usually listen.

Hike your own hike

Mike P. said:

While the 20% who winter hike, likely do hike more, I'd only be willing to give them credit for 50 -60% of the hikes. I've been on Osceola & passed over 100 people in the summer - we stoped counting at 100 - before but I was the only VFTT poster (pre ROT & The newer trail condition sites) The casual hiker & the serious summer hiker (they may downhill ski in the winter) just don't post online.

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Mike, excellent points all around, thank you.

Only thing I'd disagree with is that I'd give the 20% who winter hike far less credit than 50% of the year-round hikes. This is just a guess, but I'd think winter hikers are a very small minority of the overall White Mountain hikers, and the ones who get all riled up over postholes are an extremely small minority. Most hikers, winter or all-season, don't post. The few that do are vocal with their opinions, but that does not mean that opinion is shared by the majority of hikers.

Mike P. said:

While the 20% who winter hike, likely do hike more, I'd only be willing to give them credit for 50 -60% of the hikes.

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Admittedly, I threw out the 80/20 numbers without giving it much thought. The point being that the people inconvenienced -- or even endangered -- by postholes is greater than the people inconvenienced or endangered by monorail. This was in response to your tacit (and maybe tongue-in-cheek) suggestion that eliminating winter hiking would do more overall good for the hiking community, b/c monorails were a greater hazard.

Mike P. said:

If a trail is well packed & solid, I'd prefer barebooting without postholing, crampons if it's steep. It takes three or four post-holes for me to figure having an extra pound or two on my feet is a benefit.

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I've got no problem with that, and I take a similar approach. I wonder how much of the posthole/snowshoe discussion is propelled by venting, rebuking, and/or educating. When I see someone on the trail flailing through several feet of powder, my tact is education because it's clear they just don't realize how much easier snowshoes will make their life.

Mike P. said:

I've created my share of postholes but never stepped in anyone elses, Isn't that a warning that the snowpack may not hold you? Step around them.... You want summer hikers, (who some seem to think are the amatuers) to avoid the monorail yet some real hikers, winter hikers are compalianing & name calling because they can't negotiate around a few post-holes? (Better turn in that I'm a real hiker T-shirt because It's hard to read, an "epic" trip report where you braved the elements & perservered to reach the summit & yet a few deep footprints set you off)

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Strawman alert! Strawman alert!
Find me a post where I complained about "a few deep footprints". Also, find me a post where I said I wanted summer hikers to avoid monorail. I only said that it doesn't present the hazard that postholing does. FWIW - I've only had one hike this winter where postholing was at all a problem, and it was a narrow trail where stepping around them wasn't an option. Mostly it's stayed consistently cold until the last few weeks, and I've taken lesser-traveled trails.

I'm not for any more legislation; I'm not for name-calling; I'm not complaining about a few errant postholes here and there. But when a trail is absolutely riddled by frozen, deep, postholes, I am for a) letting people know that what they have created is potentially dangerous (i.e. education), and b) people taking half a second out of their recreation activity to consider that other people use these same trails.

Mike P. said:

Hike your own hike

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Except that the "your" becomes "our" when it's on public land.

Didn't know about the ADK s/s rule. Where is that (and others?) published??

rup said:

Didn't know about the ADK s/s rule. Where is that (and others?) published??

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the s/s rule is posted at every trailhead

and I for one am sick of snowshoers messing up the ski tracks on MY trails...

Mike P. said:

Hike your own hike

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Hike your own hike? That's fine, as long as it doesn't have a tangible adverse impact on the rest of us. Want to listen to your Ipod with headphones as you walk along the trail? No problem. Want to carry a boombox and inflict it on the rest of us? Not so much...

You know what the problem is ? Unless you want the "Rule" like the ADK's have (and that's no panacea), the only person this is affecting is "You" (the generic "You" here who is bothered). "They" are not going to abide by your requests. "They" are home drinking a beer. "You" need to decide if this is going to ruin your hike or not. A root or rock can snap your ankle just as fast as a post hole. Nothing's perfect, it's all part of the experience.

I do agree with the dog (and human) feces though. That's just disgusting.

I'm still trying to figure out what a divot is...

We all have too much time on our hands . . . both the complainers and the judgements about the complainers and those who post comments on both of the previous groups

Having said that I HATE, HATE, HATE postholes, they trip me up and ruin my hike to a certain extent and I don't care if that makes me a wimpy crybaby . . . I whine and bitch and wish bad things on the maker of the damn postholes . . . SO THERE, take that all you judgmental people !!!

I also value the freedom to choose my own footwear and so would never get behind "laws" over what I or anyone else should have on their feet.

Anyway, I gotta get back to work as I have just spent my lunch 30 minutes reading this thread, YIKES !!!

sli74

Chip said:

I do agree with the dog (and human) feces though. That's just disgusting.

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As long as we are whining, how *^%#$ hard is it to kick a little snow over your pee stain? Show some courtesy. I really do not need to know your level of hydration, thank you very much!

Wow, I sure opened up a can of worms here. Didn't really mean to make such a big deal out of it. The reason I used the expression "fill in your divots" is in reference to the nearly-universally accepted practice among golfers to always repair their gouges in the terrain. I am not a golfer; but the ethic makes a certain amount of sense to me. I understand that you can actually get thrown out of certain golf courses if you break the rule. I'm not advocating anything similar here . . . really

Elizabeth said:

Wow, I sure opened up a can of worms here. Didn't really mean to make such a big deal out of it.

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We get this thread every spring, like clockwork. The same issues are raised each year, and the same trade offs are brought up. That's not to say it isn't useful or educational, but you're not going to ever get agreement or consensus on it.

Postholing, unleashed dogs, carrying guns, and cell phones: Keeping VftT exciting since 1995.

Dave M is right, seasonal threads are as sure as the lupines blooming every year. If I had to make one point in all this it would be this, there are many people who for whatever reason dont hike at all, now that is a problem (for them). For all the "issues'' that we encounter, we are the lucky ones who get out there and see what the mountains have to offer, the sunrises, the views from range to range, the wildlife, and espechally the people and all there differences. We are all mountain climbers and are dam lucky we are, relish in the great and forget the rest, some people cant hike due to physical handicapps, how would you like to be in thier shoes ?
Just yesterday, I was out in the southern peaks, I came across a guy, yammering away on his cell, while his dog did his business right in the trail which the guy left for me to step in, he had postholed the whole trail for me but he had this huge handgun strapped to his belt so I didnt say anything, I in spite of all this, noticed the summits darting in and out of the clouds and thought, nowhere else I rather be. Be Well All.

Elizabeth said:

Wow, I sure opened up a can of worms here. Didn't really mean to make such a big deal out of it. The reason I used the expression "fill in your divots" is in reference to the nearly-universally accepted practice among golfers to always repair their gouges in the terrain. I am not a golfer; but the ethic makes a certain amount of sense to me. I understand that you can actually get thrown out of certain golf courses if you break the rule. I'm not advocating anything similar here . . . really

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From this explanation the answer to the problem becomes quite clear. Watch golf on TV. Do you see that Tiger guy replacing his divots? Naa. He has a caddy for that. All we need to to is hire hiking caddies to fill in those nasty holes. The result will be smoother, safer hiking and increased employment in the WMV.