Pepper spray?

In Georgia, where we spend our vacations, personal "pepper" spray is sold over the counter no questions asked. The paper that comes with it says that it is a combination of pepper spray and tear gas.

I purchased one last summer. It hangs on my pack and looks very much like a water proof match container and has a quick release clip.

So far on my North East hikes I have been chased or attacked by one moose, seven or eight dogs and one person. I know from the way Lauky was acting that on a rare couple of occasions we were being tracked by something I didn't see. The person in question was rather quickly dissuaded by my Airedale Duffy. The moose I escaped by running a zigzag pattern through the woods. My wooden staff generally works on the dogs. I would only use the spray as a last resort and I hope I never use it but it's nice to know it's there.

sierra said:

My opinions are based on 30 years of backcountry time in the Whites and I stand by post.

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As do I and as do I.

AS far as "couching my proclamations in a more nuanced tone" I have a right to express myself the way I see fit, I am passionate about what I believe in, people do not have to listen to my ideas, they have every right to discount them and listen to anyone else that see as more "well informed".

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As long as you don't insult others you are free to post most anything here. But if you are interested in having people listen to you, then you might want to tone your proclamations down slightly, especially when they are shown to be wrong. You have a right to your own opinions; you do not have a right to your own facts.

In case anyone is wondering, this is all posted from my vantage point as a poster, not a moderator.

DSettahr said:

Pepper spray will dissuade bees?

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The bee comment was in response to "There is NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING in regards to animals, mammals, fish, snakes or anything at all that can hurt you or you should be afraid in the White Mtns."

Copperheads in ME?

Peakbagr said:

The thread is about the northeast mtns.
Dave is correct. There are timber rattlesnakes and copperheads in NH, ME, VT and NY.
A rabid raccoon or coyote might be dissuaded from bothering you with spray, and pepper or bear spray is an option for the very unlikely but possible encounter with a black bear of which there are many in the northeast.
The pit bull my friend encountered on the trail may not have torn his shirt off if he'd been carrying a small pepper spray canister.
Bear spray would have probably prevented my friend's dog from the serious bear mauling it took last year in the Catskills. I'm not afraid of bears and love to see them in the wild but but sweeping generalizations shed heat not light.

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I have pepper spray and I carry it with me on every hike.

Not for bears, but for dogs. Unfortunately, over the years, I've had growling, unleashed dogs approach me/my child/my leashed dog on the trails -- some owners don't make sure their dog is either on a leash or under strict voice control. Having the pepper spray with me is insurance -- I've pulled it out quite a few times, but thankfully haven't had to use it yet. Always glad I have it with me though, especially since I usually hike with my kids.

MichaelJ said:

In NH, no permit is required.
To carry pepper spray in your possession in MA, you must have a Massachusetts FID card issued and approved by your local MA police department.

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FWIW, the FID card is super-easy to get. Fill out a form and show two proofs of ID. I think the cost is a couple of dollars.

Also, as MJ mentioned before, you can't use bear spray on people in MA, but you can use pepper-spray that is marketed for self-defense (different chemical concentration)...just make sure you have the FID card...which should be very easy to get.

For NH residents traveling to MA, I'm not sure how this would work on a bear...would probably just make it angry....but a small can of hairspray is completely legal and can be used very effectively as a self-defense tool against people and dogs. Just like pepper spray, aim for the eyes. Again, not sure how that would work on bears, though...still, if you're thinking about safety on the trails, wouldn't hurt to have it with you, since, in MA anyway, the greatest danger would come from other people and aggressive dogs...just cover the cannister with duct tape to avoid being made fun of by other hikers...

David Metsky said:

The bee comment was in response to "There is NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING in regards to animals, mammals, fish, snakes or anything at all that can hurt you or you should be afraid in the White Mtns."

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I'm pretty sure that sierra's comment was only made in the context of the use of pepper spray as a deterrent against dangerous wildlife. I really, really doubt that sierra really and truly believes that bees can't ever be a threat to anyone in the WMNF. Maybe not the best choice of words, but I'm sure that he is well aware of the dangers of allergic reactions to bee stings (I would certainly hope so with 30 years of backcountry experience! )

David Metsky said:

But if you are interested in having people listen to you, then you might want to tone your proclamations down slightly, especially when they are shown to be wrong. You have a right to your own opinions; you do not have a right to your own facts.

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What about proclamations about proclamations? Since they are also proclamations, shouldn't they be toned down as well?

I think what sierra is trying to say is that the risks associated with dangerous wildlife in the northeast tend to be blown way out of proportion, and I do agree somewhat with his sentiments. After thousands of miles of hiking and hundreds of nights in the woods in the northeast without carrying pepper or bear spray, I have not yet once encountered a situation that made me think "Dang! I forgot my bear spray... I really wish I had it on me right now... I'm in serious danger without it!"

That's not to say that situations where the use of bear spray is warranted don't ever crop up in the woods... I'm sure they do, but they happen so infrequently that I question whether bear spray really needs to be included on a hiker's list of "backcountry essentials." Personally, though, I would think that prevention of negative animal encounters to begin with (through methods like proper handling of food in the backcountry) would be a much more effective method of protecting oneself than carrying bear spray.

Check out Wikipedia's article on fatal bear attacks in North America. Yes, there are a couple of fatal attacks listed in the northeast that occurred in the backcountry or were perpetrated by wild black bears, but the majority of fatal bear attacks in the northeast United States involve bears being kept as pets or people doing something stupid (like breaking into the polar bear enclosure in a zoo). Even a fatal attack in nearby Algonquin Provincial Park by a wild black bear was described by a park naturalist as being "right off the scale of normal bear behavior."

Also, where the heck are people hiking that they are encountering the bristling, angry, posed to strike, frothing, growling dogs that I've heard mention of in so many hiking threads? I've encountered hundreds of dogs in the woods, and I don't think I've ever had a single encounter that was a negative experience for me. I'm sure that there are dogs out there that could pose a threat to other hikers (and there is anecdotal evidence in this thread to support that), but I would also question how great that risk really is.

However, regardless of my own (or anyone elses) personal views, it's all about each individual's comfort zone. If some people feel better having it, more power to them. Sometimes, we forget that not everyone has the same level of comfort in the woods. It's important the people are allowed to feel comfortable in the woods on a psychological level, because the more comfortable they feel, the less likely they are to do something stupid/irresponsible that will ruin others enjoyment of the wilderness.

When someone does decide to carry it, however, it needs to be an informed decision. They need to know what they are carrying it for, what situations it is appropriate in, and how to use it properly. They also need to be respectful of the fact that it can be used as a weapon, and as with any weapon, simply having it can make other people that they encounter in the woods uncomfortable. To quote Uncle Ben, "with great power comes great responsibility."

DSettahr said:

Also, where the heck are people hiking that they are encountering the bristling, angry, posed to strike, frothing, growling dogs that I've heard mention of in so many hiking threads? I've encountered hundreds of dogs in the woods, and I don't think I've ever had a single encounter that was a negative experience for me. I'm sure that there are dogs out there that could pose a threat to other hikers (and there is anecdotal evidence in this thread to support that), but I would also question how great that risk really is.

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All but two of the attacks I can think of took place while doing the NH48. One took place on Pleasant Mt. ME and one on Belknap Mt.

All of them occurred because the dog or dogs in question came after my dog. The last one was on top of Mt. Pierce. I was standing there talking to someone with Lauky at my side when a Golden came up from behind and just jumped him. The time before that was while going up Belknap. We were going up and a Pitbull came running out of nowhere and tried to jump him. I fended him off with my staff and it was starting to get nasty when the owner suddenly appeared and jumped his dog and pinned him to the ground. I think that smaller dogs like Lauky seem to incite the prey instinct of larger dogs. As for little kids what happens is a dog will sometimes come running up and the child is frightened which again incites the instincts of certain dogs.

Tom Ryan's dog Atticus was almost killed by another dog near the trailhead of Passaconaway a couple of years ago.

If you're out hiking without either a dog or a child it's quite possible that you will never encounter a problem. Although I do remember an incident that involved Giggy (haven't heard that name in a while). He encountered a dog in the fog up near the summit of Washington and the dog just jumped him and bit him. So it does happen.

Trust me there is no one!!! on this website more pro-dog than I am and the last thing I want to do is 'gas' another dog. If using the spray in an urgent situation could save a dog from serious injury it probably would be a good thing to do.

I was on North Hancock in the summer of 2005 when I was confronted by a snarling, lunging, mastiff. Its people were lounging on the summit and not bothering to supervise their dog when he saw me and was likely being protective of them. I don't blame the dog, but it scared the bejesus out of me, and I adore dogs. My feeling is, with a dog this protective, it needs to stay on leash or not be on the trail, period. Just my 2 cents. It happens. There are dumb people all over and some of them own dogs and bring them hiking when they shouldn't . Being attacked is something else entirely. I shudder to even think about it ....

Can you use it to spice up your meal? Some backcountry meals can be pretty bland.

All I can tell you is god help the person that ever pepper-sprays the puppy for exhibiting exuberant puppy behavior. If you can't tell a happy puppy from a dangerous dog then you have no business carrying an anti-dog weapon.

With a dog that has not already clearly descended into violence, just start with command tones, "Down!" or "Off!" Heck, just stand up and take one step forward into the dog to declare your dominance. That will not only stop happy, trained dogs that are saying hello, but many a confused, not sure how to act dog as well.

This was a much better thread when it addressed the original question, and before it turned into Fear Factor.

MichaelJ said:

All I can tell you is god help the person that ever pepper-sprays the puppy for exhibiting exuberant puppy behavior. If you can't tell a happy puppy from a dangerous dog then you have no business carrying an anti-dog weapon.

With a dog that has not already clearly descended into violence, just start with command tones, "Down!" or "Off!" Heck, just stand up and take one step forward into the dog to declare your dominance. That will not only stop happy, trained dogs that are saying hello, but many a confused, not sure how to act dog as well.

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Nah -- everyone has the right to carry weapons against what they honestly perceive to be aggressive, out-of-control dogs.

It's not John or Jane Smith's job to understand puppy behavior or to know how to deal with someone else's dog. It is the dog owner's job to keep their dog/puppy off of John and Jane Smith, period. The laws in every state (even Massachusetts) reflect that.

I would NOT recommend experimenting with stances, words, or motions if you see an unleashed, aggressive dog quickly coming your way. I would not wait until the dog is already committing violent acts (the time it takes for a dog to "descend into violent acts" can be a milisecond or less). I would use what time you have to get the spray out and ready it while the dog is coming. The words, stances, etc, often do not work on very aggressive dogs. What will work, without fail, is the spray. So -- especially if you've got kids with you -- use what you know will keep you and your loved ones safe. If you do have to spray the dog, the fault lies 100% with the dog owner. You've every legal and moral right to defend yourself and/or your kid and /or your own leashed pet. A dog owner does NOT have the right to bring his or her dog on the trails (or the sidewalk) if he or she doesn't take the rights of other people seriously.

ALGonquin Bob said:

This was a much better thread when it addressed the original question, and before it turned into Fear Factor.

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There have been incidents of people and dogs being attacked on the NH trails by unleashed and aggressive dogs, so I have to respectfully disagree with you -- I think the dog issue does address the original question.

I'm happy this topic came up. Had never considered that Molly might get a face full for behaving like a "pup," but it is a very serious consideration. We are duty bound to protect our "fur kids" from people and vice versa. I will most certainly be on high alert if there are children who I do not know in the area.

This is what I carry but 1% for dogs and 99% for people perps. We live in a different world now.
Spray now, talk later!
Don't leave home without it.

http://www.amazon.com/Halt-91427/dp/B001AZMH46/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1323178792&sr=8-2

ALGonquin Bob said:

This was a much better thread when it addressed the original question, and before it turned into Fear Factor.

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As long as no one starts eating spiders, I'm good with it.

ALGonquin Bob said:

This was a much better thread when it addressed the original question, and before it turned into Fear Factor.

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Snap!, on the Fear Factor part, but I've enjoyed all the different aspects of this thread, from the trolly entertaining to the actually transcendent.

As for the OP, especially with dogs, isn't it most times too late, unless you carry it on your belt? With dogs in particular, I've found that the interactions often come on very quickly...

Which is why I recommend trekking poles instead!

I sometimes now carry poles specifically because I'm in known dog territory; makes me feel less confrontational knowing I have my safety in my own hands.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone their personal perimeter defenses, but pepper spray is a dangerous weapon, and proportionality warns me that a weapon can be turned against one.

But, especially with dogs, I don't think pepper spray is proportional (barring a true 'red-zone' assault). I have yet to meet anything in up to 2 dogs that I can't handle with a pair of sticks..., and I already have them out anyway.

But even further, with dogs especially, the real answer lies in avoiding the over-reaction. I make a point not to yield one inch of the road I own as I pass such creatures, while respecting their owners' rights in a golden-rule way. Be chill, show basic respect, don't apologize, and don't get hung up waiting for them. Just pass by, sticks working unthreateningly, smile, and keep the energy positive. In 99% of cases, pepper spray would probably be a destructive escalation, where a little Bobby Orr defense would have worked.

I also now avoid judging or correcting, up until they're actually inside my perimeter, at which point it's just physical technique (poles close or even crossed)..., and keep moving. Such owners either don't need my lecture or won't benefit from it. On the other hand, I feel forgiven for being myself and having my own human reaction. It's just that I've had so many iterations by now that I know what works, all the way up to a full assault. Fortunately, I've had only a very few of those, and I know I've averted a few just by being cool.

Weapons on the trail really need some thought, if you ask me. If you really feel you do, then by all means equip yourself. I'd just be cautious with consequences! I'd hate to over-react and then find that I became the felon! "Spray now, talk later!"???

Maddy said:

I'm happy this topic came up. Had never considered that Molly might get a face full for behaving like a "pup," but it is a very serious consideration. We are duty bound to protect our "fur kids" from people and vice versa. I will most certainly be on high alert if there are children who I do not know in the area.

This is what I carry but 1% for dogs and 99% for people perps. We live in a different world now.
Spray now, talk later!
Don't leave home without it.

http://www.amazon.com/Halt-91427/dp/B001AZMH46/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1323178792&sr=8-2

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Maddy, thanks -- you're right. It's helpful to think of it in those terms -- people need to protect themselves, and dog owners need to protect their dogs. That's a great, positive way to put it.

(Also, though a bit off-topic, here's something else to consider -- there are people who are allergic to dog hair and/or dog saliva and they absolutely cannot have dogs jumping on them. I used to know someone who had severe reactions whenever a dog so much as licked him. One of Alex's friends has a severe reaction to certain types of dog hair. So it's not just aggressive behavior issues...some folks have severe allergies and therefore really rely on dog owners to keep even their happy and playful canines under control. )

I think unleashed bees are more of a problem than people realize.



Peace

Since I guess we are going down the dog thread route....

I once had my lab approach another hiker, a middle-aged man who was apparently deathly afraid of dogs. Not sure. My lab was on the tail end of a Pemi valley hike through, from Zealand to Lincoln, and was exhausted. She came up on this guy, who raised his hand and was about to hit her. My dog just walked by her, without a care in the world. My hiking partners gave the guy an earful (I just ensured my dog kept moving to get her out of the situation).

I'd hate to think she (or anyone else downwind) took a faceful just for, in reality, welll...just for existing.

Interesting...this was about an hour after chasing Brutus the Black Bear out of our camp. Even when we were staring him down and chasing him off, I don't think spray would've been the answer there.