Hiking in the winter with a Lab

Power snacks like mozzarella cheese sticks, dried beef or lamb lung or jerky on hikes fed every hour

Consider adding 2 ounces of raw liver to his food at least three times a week

A raw egg or two each week for b vitamins

We could discuss raw diets by pm if you are interested

He is working different muscles than when biking and he has done 2 big hikes in the past ten days, yes? Maybe too much too soon for him?

I know a few stretches that I use in my dogs that help, I will get hubby to help me make a video or will find a you tube link

He did do another 10 mile hike a few days previously. He's done 15-20 mile hikes in the summer with no problem though. I'll feed him more and see how he does. From what I've read dogs get more of their energy from protein unlike humans which needs carbs. Maybe some peanut butter would be good.

Dogs don't need carbs

(rather they derive them by glucogenesis of proteins)

There are many grain free commercial dog foods available, Orijen and Acana are my two favorites.

My dogs eat only raw, fresh meat, bone, eggs, fish and fish oils - just like nature intended ;/)..but I digress...

una_dogger said:

Subtle signs of being cold are tiptoeing, lifting a front paw (submissive gesture), a hunched back, a tail between the legs to conserve heat, moving behind a tree or other windblock, circling and digging in the snow (nesting); more obvious signs are shivering.

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Delilah sometimes exhibits some of these behaviors, particularly nesting. I know she's keeping cool when she does it in the summer, but never thought much about it in the winter. Good to know. I'm still learning...
I've avoided buying her a coat so far, but perhaps there's something inexpensive she can hike in from the start without overheating? Recommendations?

chipc said:

make sure your dog drinks during the hike. With many water sources covered or frozen I bring extra water just for the dogs and make sure they drink some when I do.

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Agreed. Delilah will eat anything I put in front of her and is happy with plain kibble snacks, but she doesn't seem to drink much in the winter unless we find a stream. She often ignores a bowl of water given to her so I rely on a tip found on (this?) forum. I pack a ~16-20 oz bottle of broth for her, made with either drippings from our most recent oven-meat meal or a small bit of chopped meat (cold-cuts work in a pinch). Stuff it in the bottle, shake, and viola! Well-hydrated dog.

MikeB said:

We use this waxy stuff called "Mushers Secret", rub it into her pads and between the toes (a little goes a long way).

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Musher's Secret is great, though I use quite a bit more than "a little" and recommend that the folks for whom it doesn't work well try using a bit more. I put it on Delilah's paw pads and work it in between the toes and it also goes on her back feet(?) between the pad and the first leg joint.

Last couple of comments
- The more you hike w Boone, the more familiar you'll be with what's 'normal' for him and it'll become easier to know when he's uncomfortable.
- As said above, keep him moving. If you need to stop for more than a few minutes, throw a stick/chase him around.
- As he ages, his needs will change. He may become more susceptible to cold and fatigue, perhaps partly because at a young age he'll keep himself in motion when you stop b/c 'staying still = boring'. Delilah, at 4yo, is not the near-invincible pup she was at 1.5yrs. She never seemed cold until last year.

Finally, if you & Boone are interested in hiking with another human-dog pair, Delilah (a lab/golden mix) and I would be happy to oblige.

Mongoose said:

I'm guessing the cold is causing him to burn more calories? I feed him extra kibble before the hike and a small bowl in the middle. Maybe he needs some kind of higher calorie food for winter?

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Consider a dog food that is available in different energy levels, ranging from 10-15% fat and protein for less active times, up to 30% for extreme cold and high activity. The high-test food helps dogs maintain weight and energy without having to increase the volume of food.

BTW, love the picture on Hancock!

whichway said:

I've avoided buying her a coat so far, but perhaps there's something inexpensive she can hike in from the start without overheating? Recommendations?

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Augs has a Ruffwear Track Jacket that runs about $35 (http://www.ruffwear.com/Track-Jacket?sc=2&category=12). It doesn't provide too much in the way of insulation, but it does block the wind and keeps him a bit warmer than he would be otherwise (I bought it mostly for visibility - he doesn't seem to need/want much extra insulation, although I do hike with a spare fleece to throw over him if we need to stop for more than a minute or two). Our friend has a Ruffwear overcoat that costs a bit more ($60), but is the next step up in terms of warmth. Both are holding up well after years of hard use. Not sure if that would fall into your "worth a try" price range, but they're solid products.

I just bought a new jacker for Augie from d-fa dogs, but it's a little pricier and he hasn't worn it long enough to say how well it'll hold up to trail use.

griffin said:

Augs has a Ruffwear Track Jacket that runs about $35 (http://www.ruffwear.com/Track-Jacket?sc=2&category=12). It doesn't provide too much in the way of insulation, but it does block the wind and keeps him a bit warmer than he would be otherwise (I bought it mostly for visibility - he doesn't seem to need/want much extra insulation, although I do hike with a spare fleece to throw over him if we need e.

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Another vote for the track jacket - I bought two for hunting season this fall, REI had them on sale for $17 in September. Definitely keeps Pemi puppy warmer.

pedxing said:

A couple weeks ago, I joined some others on a bushwhack they'd planned. There were two other dogs, aside from mine and one of those dogs became hypothermic (shivering uncontrollably and unable/unwilling to keep moving). Temps were in the low 20s and there was not a lot of wind. The dog was small, but had already completed the 48 earlier in the year.

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This is really scary. Could you tell us what was done when the dog became hypothermic and how it all worked out.

Ed'n Lauky said:

This is really scary. Could you tell us what was done when the dog became hypothermic and how it all worked out.

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I was wondering about this situation also. In general when I've been bush whacking, movement can be slow and stress levels higher than on a normal hike ( rough terrain, thick cover, snowy or wet branches to push through)- all factors that I would be concerned about putting my dogs through. Not judging, just thinking objectively

Glad it all worked out !

I don't meant to take away from the core topic (though my dog is 1/4 Lab). I'd been trying to put together some thoughts without much discussion of this story. But since you ask for more info:

We were bushwhacking to Scar Ridge a few weeks ago. My dog and I were up ahead when problems started, so I'm not sure what warning signs this dog was giving. The dog had been hanging back a bit and then rushing to catch up. I thought this might be an indicator the dog wanted to stop, but his companion had indicated that this was typical and not worrisome behavior. She was checking on the dog and the ice accumulating on his legs. As we neared the summit, the dog was not catching up. His companion turned back to call for him and then look for him. The others did as well. He was not responding to calls. It turned out that the dog had moved into some thick brush - probably for shelter, possibly because he didn't want to be encouraged/told to keep moving. He didn't emerge until another dog barked. He was shivering and looked like he was a bit out of it and would not move much, despite encouragement.

He did accept food and I fed him as his owner emptied her backpack. The others of us split the contents of her pack among our packs and the owner managed to fit most of the dog's body into her pack with some insulation and some hand warmers and a hat on its head. The fact that the dog did not protest or fight this was, to me, not a good sign. I followed right behind the dog to monitor him and to try to keep the hat on (there was some comic relief in this as the hat was constantly being knocked off and I struggled to fulfill my my role as hat wallah for a dog while keeping up with the procession). Whenever we stopped, I tried to add some body heat to the dog and feed it a bite or two. It responded fairly well to all this and after a while it began to actively protest being stuck in the pack and tried to get out which was a good sign. It was early enough in the afternoon that we figured we'd head to the ski patrol on loon. They were great and took dog and human via snowmobile to the enclosed gondolas. The rest of us headed down the ski slopes. Ultimately all was well with all of us, the hypothermic dog was doing great by the time we met up. The other dogs seemed fine throughout the trip. I did notice the other two dogs looking cold, but not extremely so, and were not shivering when we were stopped to help the hypothermic dog.

I don't sense any inappropriate judgement from you Unadogger. I think it is important to judge actions and decisions, but not people. And when there are lessons to be learned, I think the lessons should be discussed. Definitely the stress of a bushwhack, as you say, was an issue - there is the challenge, the slower movement (with less heat generated) for long stretches, the stops to check navigation, the large quantities of snow that inevitably fall on the dogs if branches are laden with snow. My thought had been to allow for that by being very cautious about expected temps as they dipped well into the 20s for bushwhacks, whereas the threshold would be temps well into the teens for most hikes with trails.

It clearly was a problem that the dog was not eating on the hike. The stopping and starting was likely a warning sign, there might have been others. The human in question felt terrible about everything - especially the fact that if it had not decided to come out of the brush, it could have died there if we hadn't been able to track it there. I've learned to be a little nosier (in a warm and friendly way, of course) about what is happening with other dogs. I was a bit of a guest on this trip, but in cases where someone else asks "can I bring my dog," the conversation will likely be more extensive than it has been in the past if it is a winter hike.

A bright spot - AndrewB who planned the trip was great! He did most of the navigation, and led all the way on the return. He was patient, prepared, communicative, thoughtful, etc. I'm sure he learned something about screening dogs and their people on winter hikes (I definitely did).

Good info. We're about ready for another dog and are considering getting two (pound mutts). Maybe one that's older. I'd imagine odds are one will be a winter hiker and one won't. Can't force the issue. Dogs are not children, but the adult has similar concerns and responsibilities. I wouldn't get too far out there without being comfortable and confident with dog's (or my child's) capabilities.

DaveSunRa said:

Labs even like hanging out near the wood stove

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Sure, but they were Yellow when you started .

pedxing said:

I don't sense any inappropriate judgement from you Unadogger. I think it is important to judge actions and decisions, but not people. And when there are lessons to be learned, I think the lessons should be discussed. Definitely the stress of a bushwhack, as you say, was an issue - there is the challenge, the slower movement (with less heat generated) for long stretches, the stops to check navigation, the large quantities of snow that inevitably fall on the dogs if branches are laden with snow. My thought had been to allow for that by being very cautious about expected temps as they dipped well into the 20s for bushwhacks, whereas the threshold would be temps well into the teens for most hikes with trails.

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Thanks for the account. It was very helpful. It occurred to me in reading this and I have been thinking about it also, that on a trail, a dog on the confinement of a leash will perhaps not be able to generate as much heat as one that is running back and forth. Just another factor to consider. Whatever, it is obvious that you have to watch for the telltale signs and be proactive in dealing with them.

Ed'n Lauky said:

It occurred to me in reading this and I have been thinking about it also, that on a trail, a dog on the confinement of a leash will perhaps not be able to generate as much heat as one that is running back and forth. Just another factor to consider.

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Absolutely. This often made the difference for my Malinois, which I had trained to perform a highly reliable off-lead recall. He often got to go on colder outings solely because he could be free to move as needed to stay warm. My wife's Malinois is walked on a retractable leash and cannot stay warm in some situations as a result.

This thread has a wealth of info on hiking dogs for sure. My input would be this, the dogs welfare must be the top priority at all times. My dog after extensive training ( or the attempt at) just could not get used to hiking, I tried everything over the course of one year, in the end, I decided to let it go and give her a break. She loves walks in the woods, short, casual and non rushed. Would I love to have her on my hikes? yes, at the expense of her not enjoying it? no way.

Agree completely.

Pedxing -- thanks for sharing that experience. I think we all (dog owners and those who hike with dog friends) can take a bit of wisdom away from this -- and that makes it relevant to the thread IMHO.

You all did an amazing job warming and safely transporting the dog to Ski Patrol.

I'll echo Chip's sentiments -- I don't take hiking with my dogs in winter lightly -- lots can go wrong and I'm responsible for their safety. A few weeks back, I was hiking with a friend in the Presis -- I had left my dogs home and he decided to leave his home, too. Conditions above treeline were very good -- lots of warm sunshine, no wind, very little snow or ice. All day he's shaking his head thinking he wish he had brought his dog. Then we began our descent -- nearly a mile of very tricky blue ice bulges along the Ammonusuc Ravine Trail. There's NO WAY either of us would have wanted our dogs on that trail on that day. The risks to us and them would be very high, and at the end of a long day, it would be very difficult for us if we had found ourselves in a rescue situation.

I've been giving some more thought to the OP's question since I was asked by a Moderator of another forum (dog training related) to reply to a post about conditioning a dog for a long distance hike. Since this was a training forum, I began to think about my reply in that context. But it really applies here as well.

Whenever I'm thinking of doing something new with my dogs, or teaching them something new -- I try to plan my approach using the four D's -

-Difficulty
-Distance
-Duration
-Distraction

Pertained to hiking:
Difficulty can mean terrain, weather conditions, steepness, water crossings, on trail or off trail, above treeline, new contacts such as steep ledges, bouldery areas, logs to jump over, ladders to climb up or down. How much of this will be new to my dog and have I hiked the trail before and know what we can expect?
Distance is an interesting one because it not only relates to total overall distance hiked but also proximity to owner . I consider how much time the dog has spent off leash, and how solid his connection is to me at a distance. Additionally, distance is relevant to leash hiking dogs -- being on leash for an extended period of time is stressful, its real work for a dog mentally and physically to have his movement restricted by a leash for long periods of time (even if it IS a 16 foot long Flexi ), and as Ed pointed out, his dog Lauky gets colder because his movement is restricted.
Duration is pretty straightforward, how long will the dog be hiking -- what will his food and water requirements be and has he hiked for this long before. Will I be hiking out at nightfall, and have I hiked with my dog after dark before?
Distraction -- hiking involves a TON of stimuli -- scents, sounds, people, dogs, wildlife, you name it. Its all going to have an effect on the dog -- in terms of extra stress from stimulation. Stress and overstimulation can decrease a dog's reliability in off leash control and also put him in an off mood -- all dogs have limits.

So, with the OP's question in mind -- I will offer the above Four D's. When planning a hike, it may be helpful to your dog to keep in mind where he is at with all of the D's and increase accordingly.

I try not to increase more than one D at a time with training or hiking. This I've learned over the past 24 years with five dogs and a couple of fosters. There's stuff I did before that I'd never do again, experience can sometimes be a harsh teacher and with respect to the doggies, they are usually the ones suffering the consequences so -- its GREAT that you are considering how to start Boone off right, Mongoose!

Happy Trails!

sierra said:

This thread has a wealth of info on hiking dogs for sure. My input would be this, the dogs welfare must be the top priority at all times. My dog after extensive training ( or the attempt at) just could not get used to hiking, I tried everything over the course of one year, in the end, I decided to let it go and give her a break. She loves walks in the woods, short, casual and non rushed. Would I love to have her on my hikes? yes, at the expense of her not enjoying it? no way.

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Agreed, this thread has a lot of info, and, from what I've been able to see, there's a lot of good stuff here.

One additional bit of advice that I don't think has yet been put forth -- after perusing this thread, take what advice you like and check it against the word of your vet. Your vet's advice tops all (I don't think anyone who's responded thus far is a vet, could be wrong).

Maddy, kudos for putting your dog first. That's what I'm doing with mine this winter. He's made it clear that he doesn't like to hike in cold weather or deep snow, so he's done until spring (except for short and frequent walks around the neighborhood). Wish he liked to hike in the cold, but he's perfectly happy staying home and racing around the house, so home is where he'll stay until April.

TrishandAlex said:

One additional bit of advice that I don't think has yet been put forth -- after perusing this thread, take what advice you like and check it against the word of your vet. Your vet's advice tops all (I don't think anyone who's responded thus far is a vet, could be wrong).

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Lots of good advice in this thread. I just wanted to add to the above comment about checking with your vet. It's definitely very useful to find a vet who understands the extent of the of hikes we do with our dogs. I remember some earlier threads where Dugan had some further advice regarding orthopedic checks. Basically, vets who are used to dealing with (or own) performance dogs (hiking dogs, agility dogs, schutzhund, hunting dogs etc) will probably able to better advise and potentially treat athletic injuries.

Cheers!

chipc said:

Basically, vets who are used to dealing with (or own) performance dogs (hiking dogs, agility dogs, schutzhund, hunting dogs etc) will probably able to better advise and potentially treat athletic injuries.

Cheers!

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That's a definite must and very excellent advice. The average pet owner goes to the average vet and says they'd like to hike with their dog -- the vet says "GREAT! I wish more people exercised their dogs!". Unless your dog is missing a leg or two, your vet is probably going to be on board with hiking even if your dog isn't necessary built for it. Instant green light=go!

Become your dog's health care advocate.

Standard small animal vet can give you clearance on your dogs heart, lungs, body weight and basic structure, a canine physical therapist is going to be your best bet if you are concerned about your dog's ability to hike long distances comfortably and what injuries he/she may be prone to.

Lots of good info at :http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=459