Wildcat pass required for hikers?

There is one meetup group that openingly posts sledfests at Cannon and Wildcat as well as some members of the AMC NH Young Members group.

Perhaps peer pressure will help persuade them to go sled on a hiking trail and not the ski trails.

strong-arm tactics? really? Ski resorts sell fun. It's the product. Any restriction of anyone having fun in any way is not ever desirable or in any way profitable. Just think.

Any such restriction is the result of dictates of the insurance company. Insurance companies get sued by scum filth lawyers and clients who get hurt as a result of their own actions, then want to get paid for it. Some people, and their lawyers, equate getting injured with hitting the lottery.

Ski areas do not want to restrict anyone's good time. They do have to cover their arses. Blaming them for the situation is wrong.

bobandgeri said:

There is one meetup group that openingly posts sledfests at Cannon and Wildcat as well as some members of the AMC NH Young Members group.

Perhaps peer pressure will help persuade them to go sled on a hiking trail and not the ski trails.

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In the interest of full disclosure it is my meetup group that has posted the sledding events that Bob is referring to. We had been told by ski patrol twice at Cannon and once at Wildcat that as long as the lifts were off and the ski area was closed they had no problems with us sledding down after hiking to the summits on the hiking trails. Whether they were stating "company policy" or their own "personal beliefs" they are responsible for safety on the mountain so we figured if it was OK with them then it was OK to do.

On Cannon this year we spoke with the woman in charge of the ski patrol and she said that despite what we had been told in the past we had been mis-informed - sledding on Cannon was not allowed before, during, or after hours. She was very polite and understanding and allowed us to descend the ski trails but asked that we not plan any such events for Cannon in the future. If that is their policy we will respect that.

Same goes for Wildcat. The most recent posts in this thread introduced (at least to me) the concerns that Wildcat has regarding sledding on their mountain. If that is their stated policy, which based on some of the previous posts it sounds like it is, then we will respect that one too. We have modified the upcoming hike that had included sledding down their ski slopes.

No need for peer pressure While I can't speak for any other groups, mine wants to play by the rules. We keep our group sizes to 12 - 15 people except in Wilderness Protection Areas that limit group sizes to ten (or fewer). Now that the rules have been stated we will follow what the USFS and the ski areas agree upon.

While I suspect the concerns from both Cannon and Wildcat stem from insurance and liability concerns (I have been a risk manager for a multi-national insurance company for the past 23 years so I understand where they are coming from) I still find it interesting that in the "Live Free or Die" State taxpayers can be restricted from using State (Cannon) and Federal (Wildcat) land while private entities use that same land to make money for themselves. That however, is a conversation for a different day

Since we dirifted over to Cannon. It would be interested to see where they draw the line. The Kinsman Ridge trail runs up the side of the mountain from the parking lot and does not go up any groomed or official ski trail. It obviously is used by out of bounds skiers who are operating outside the established boundariies of the ski area. So does the restriction against sledding apply on the KRT as it most likely is on Cannon Mountain ski area land?

Cannon has it posted at the summit that hikers are not allowed on the trails. They currently do let you hike as far as the cafe, but even then we have been approached by ski patrol making sure we knew we were not allowed on the trails while doing that short walk. Even in the cafe they have approached to make sure we knew the rules.

The Kinsman Glade trail is the offical ski trail that shares the Kinsman Ridge hiking trail at several spots. Not really a good trail to sled on as it get's very bumpy.

peakbagger said:

The Kinsman Ridge trail runs up the side of the mountain from the parking lot and does not go up any groomed or official ski trail. It obviously is used by out of bounds skiers who are operating outside the established boundariies of the ski area.

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As Bob correctly notes, this is untrue. The trail passes (and switchbacks through) Kinsman Glade, which is within bounds and shown on the Cannon Ski Area Trail Map. It requires a good deal of snow for the glade to be open, but it sure looks like in the right conditions it's amazing skiing. Given the steepness and the trees, I wouldn't be comfortable sledding it (I'd be slamming on the brakes the whole time), though others might.

MichaelJ said:

As Bob correctly notes, this is untrue. The trail passes (and switchbacks through) Kinsman Glade, which is within bounds and shown on the Cannon Ski Area Trail Map. It requires a good deal of snow for the glade to be open, but it sure looks like in the right conditions it's amazing skiing. Given the steepness and the trees, I wouldn't be comfortable sledding it (I'd be slamming on the brakes the whole time), though others might.

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And having been up there a couple weeks ago I swear that they have gone in and cut down more trees to widen the glades. I don't remember it EVER being so open as it is right now.......

Brian

Wondering if there have been any updates to this issue. We hiked the Wildcats on the 16th but we got a really late start and descended without issue under the light of our headlamps so our experience may not reflect the current situation.

NewHampshire said:

And having been up there a couple weeks ago I swear that they have gone in and cut down more trees to widen the glades. I don't remember it EVER being so open as it is right now.......

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Ski areas always clean up their glades just before ski season starts. Brushing, blowdowns, etc.

On Sat, we checked with the Wildcat office to see what, if any pass was needed to exit down Polecat. They charged us $10 for an uphill access pass (no lift).

We had planned to hike the Carters, stay at Carter Notch Hut and hike down on Sunday....but when we woke up Sunday we decided we wanted to watch the Pats so we hiked down 19Mile and never got to use the pass, although they got our $80.

SherpaTom said:

On Sat, we checked with the Wildcat office to see what, if any pass was needed to exit down Polecat. They charged us $10 for an uphill access pass (no lift).

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The pass itself seems to say $20 ???

And you were going downhill ???

Yeah, I notice that...Says Cash $20, then WC $10 access fee...Either way, I consider it thievery.

If we did hike down and got stopped, we were going to tell them we had no passes to see what would have happened...

but the PATS won.

MichaelJ said:

Ski areas always clean up their glades just before ski season starts. Brushing, blowdowns, etc.

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And trees that grow up with other trees around them are weaker because they are protected by their neighbors. When their neighbors are gone, they themselves become blowdowns more easily.

erugs said:

And trees that grow up with other trees around them are weaker because they are protected by their neighbors. When their neighbors are gone, they themselves become blowdowns more easily.

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True....but not everywhere if proper practices are utilized.
http://www.treeskier.com/forestry/guidelines_northern_hardwoods.html

Wait, why did you give Wildcat any money at all? We have no confirmation yet that the USFS has even given them permission to enforce this access requirement.

akafuzzjones said:

While I suspect the concerns from both Cannon and Wildcat stem from insurance and liability concerns

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Not just that. What if they've just gone and groomed out a trail, and then a bunch of sledders come down the corduroy digging their heels in and dragging tracks and furrows through? I'd be pretty upset either from the point of view of the ski area, or as a paying customer the next morning.

Of course, the bigger risk is injury … someone sledding down and ramming into a snow gun or a hose set up across the trail (because the ski area's closed, so nobody should be on the trail) is one particular case I can think of that would be unpleasant.

I sent Susan Mathison an e-mail today asking for an update.

Tim

We paid because we asked if there was a fee and they said yes and printed a ticket. Whether it is right or wrong, we did not debate other than to tell them it was ridiculous. I'm not about to take my morning arguing with her. Like I said, we did not end up hiking down on Sunday so I cannot what would have happened.

SherpaTom said:

We paid because we asked if there was a fee and they said yes and printed a ticket. Whether it is right or wrong, we did not debate other than to tell them it was ridiculous. I'm not about to take my morning arguing with her. Like I said, we did not end up hiking down on Sunday so I cannot what would have happened.

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Sherpa Tom I admire your situational consideration and not getting your panties up your crack and letting it infringe on your obviously good time!

Any update, Tim?