An ounce of prevention...

Thanks a whole lot for your support. It's still quite raw today. I really needed your input and understanding.
You don't forget something like this in the blink of an eye.
Looking back I would not do anything different. When I called the police, I thought they would send someone to walk me back to my car. From the get go I was instructed to maintain my position and NOT to approach his vehicle. Not that I intended to anyway.
I was concerned that if he did have ill intentions he might be packing a weapon. That made me as concerned for Molly as for myself.
Something that came very clear to me was how it's a bit time consuming to call the police. Once a situation has escalated, you might not get another chance. A predator/criminal is not going to wait while you get your mittens off, pull your phone out of your pocket, push the on button, slide the bar over, click the phone icon, and get into favorites for 911. You then have a brief conversation explaining the problem and they in turn ask questions which will facilitate them getting to you ASAP.
I think if you have serious concerns about your safety you need to get this done fast and not wait for the problem to escalate. No perp is going to stand idly by while you go thru all these shenanigans trying to get help.
Little Rickie I think you are right. You wrote "That's what makes me think there is more to this than we know."
Me thinks the same.
And Stan, I think your are right on also. "No one innocent need take offense by being reported sincerely as a prospective stalker or for suspicious activity. It is this kind of intuitive concern that, on occasion, provides leads for solving or preventing crimes. A long shot perhaps but there are some unsolved murders out in Central Mass. "
I think the worse thing one can do is to do nothing if you feel you you might be in danger. People get over their "hurt" feelings. You don't get over being raped of murdered.
I am happy to report that on my way home from my hike in another beautiful snowy state park in WESTERN MA, I bought the police and dispatcher a nice thank you card in appreciation for their concern, their rapid response, and professionalism. They really do have a "thankless" job.
Thanks to those who shared their experiences. Sierra, I sure am happy you were packing that pistol. Way to go girl!!!

sierra said:

Fear can be a usefull tool in many situations. Besides I think its different for woman ( that by no means is meant to be sexist) who are alone verses men.

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I agree Sierra and I totally understand why Maddy did what she did and I probably would have done the same. I've learned to trust my instincts and they've saved me more than once. It isn't "sexist," it's reality.

I don't think the OP overreacted but maybe the police did

Just as women may have more fear of being attacked by strangers, men have more fear of being wrongly attacked by police

Look at the paper tomorrow and see if the headline is:

"Alert Hiker Leads to Arrest of Most-Wanted Dangerous Criminal"

or
"Disabled Man Waiting For Wife on Bird Walk Sues Police for Harassment"

IMO, Maddy did the right thing. To question her instincts when she felt the "danger light" go on makes no sense to me. Also, the police, not knowing what was up did the right thing. I am a guy and have come across others on the trail/trail head that had my senses say "watch out".

RoySwkr said:

I don't think the OP overreacted but maybe the police did

Just as women may have more fear of being attacked by strangers, men have more fear of being wrongly attacked by police

Look at the paper tomorrow and see if the headline is:

"Alert Hiker Leads to Arrest of Most-Wanted Dangerous Criminal"

or
"Disabled Man Waiting For Wife on Bird Walk Sues Police for Harassment"

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Police are human and make mistakes. Like everything in life there are good cops and bad cops, good docs and bad docs,good teachers, bad teachers., etc. From what I observed they did their job and they did it well.
I didn't observe them terrorizing anyone.

I am not expecting to see any headlines in tomorrows paper relating to this topic. This is not a joke. It was a bad experience and one I could have done without. In ~45 some odd years of hiking, I have never felt the need to call the police for help, and I have met my share of weirdos along the way.

On this note, I am going to ask the moderators to close this thread.

Maddy said:

On this note, I am going to ask the moderators to close this thread.

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I'll leave it open a bit longer for people to respond if they choose. Please no personal comments.

interesting thread... it reminds us all (male or female) that you gotta be on alert. You gotta think like you're in a city even when you're at a trailhead. It takes a while to realize you gotta check out the other cars in the lot.

How many times it's just my car and one other that I *think* is empty!!! Today - one other car at the trailhead I was at and I never ran into the person.

I think Sierra has a good point - protection (and practice)!

David Metsky said:

I'll leave it open a bit longer for people to respond if they choose. Please no personal comments.

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And please ....no police bashing!

Stan said:

No one innocent need take offense by being reported sincerely as a prospective stalker or for suspicious activity.

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That sounds like a variation of "Nothing to Hide, Nothing to Fear" type of thinking that has been chipping away at our civil liberties and privacy since 9-11, or perhaps the Red Scare. I don't subscribe to that kind of Orwellian thinking.

The argument that no privacy problem exists if a person has nothing to hide is frequently made in connection with many privacy issues. When the government engages in surveillance, many people believe that there is no threat to privacy unless the government uncovers unlawful activity, in which case a person has no legitimate justification to claim that it remain private.

Thus, if an individual engages only in legal activity, she has nothing to worry about. When it comes to the government collecting and analyzing personal information, many people contend that a privacy harm exists only if skeletons in the closet are revealed. For example, suppose the government examines one’s telephone records and finds out that a person made calls to her parents, a friend in Canada, a video store, and a pizza delivery shop. “So what?” that person might say. “I’m not embarrassed or humiliated by this information. If anybody asks me, I’ll gladly tell them what stores I shop at. I have nothing to hide.”

The “nothing to hide” argument and its variants are quite prevalent in popular discourse about privacy. Data security expert Bruce Schneier calls it the “most common retort against privacy advocates” Legal scholar Geoffrey Stone refers to it as “all-too-common refrain.” The “nothing to hide” argument is one of the primary arguments made when balancing privacy against security. In its most compelling form, it is an argument that the privacy interest is generally minimal to trivial, thus making the balance against security concerns a foreordained victory for security. Sometimes the “nothing to hide” argument is posed as a question: “If you have nothing to hide, then what do you have to fear?” Others ask: “If you aren’t doing anything wrong, then what do you have to hide?”

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And people DO get hurt when they are the victim of overzealous law enforcement and the type of paranoia spread by Tattle-Tale programs like "If You See Something, Say Something", resulting in scenarios like this:

Let me reintroduce you to James and Pamela Smoak. After being tailed for 8 miles on I-40 east by THP, they are pulled over, removed from their vehicle, placed on their knees and handcuffed on the side of I-40 along with the “coordinated effort” of local Cookeville police. They are told they are suspected for a robbery in Davidson County (which hasn’t been reported). After repeatedly asking officers to close the open doors of their car on the side of the interstate because of their two dogs inside (and this request being ignored/denied), one of the dogs leaves the vehicle and approaches the crowd behind the car with tail wagging. Cookeville Police officer Eric Hill shoots the dog “in fear for his life”. The family can’t believe what is happening and when James begins to move in protest, he is trampled by the “coordinated effort” of state and local police, injuring his knee in the process.
_______

Mr. Smoak had left his wallet on top of the car when they fueled up at a gas station. The whole wallet came off the top of the car along with about $440 in cash. You really should read the first few pages here for a breakdown of the facts contained in court records. The beginning pages are the statement of facts from THP trooper Bush’s lost appeal ruling for his use of excessive force on the Smoak’s. It puts a whole new perspective on the incompetence of the dispatchers, “coordinated effort” with local police and jumping to conclusions. In a matter of minutes, the THP turned this into an armed robbery in Davidson County (which never was reported) and a Be On the LookOut for green “kind of like a station wagon”. This despite THP responding to the loose cash in the median at Mt. Juliet and discovering Mr. Smoak’s license and identity in the process. Apparently $440 is also “mucho mucho dinero” and worthy of a “felony” stop because you just shouldn’t have that much money and obviously stole it. I mean, speeding alleged by an unknown informant in a “kind of like a station wagon” is a felony too right?

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Things can escalate quickly, and people (and dogs) can get hurt. Innocent people. Innocent dogs.

Maddy said:

...Thanks to those who shared their experiences. Sierra, I sure am happy you were packing that pistol. Way to go girl!!!

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I always thought Sierra was male.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

If I were to give the benefit of the doubt to the individual in the car much stranger things happen in state park lots than sitting reading the paper for hours. There is as much possibility that he had walked earlier and was relaxing after. Two in the afternoon leaves plenty of time before someone is due home to have peaceful alone time.

We are all entitled to our own opinions and yes privacy as well. If an individual is described from the start with derogatory nouns and adjectives then bias and judgement have been established and that can affect the nature of the chat officials have with the alleged offender. His smile whether sincere or not may have cost him a peaceful afternoon and a bit of dignity. Yes a small price to pay in some eyes but still a violation in the eyes of others.

Things do happen and the reporting by the media does its best to make many of us fear the worst and prepare for it by what ever measure we see fit. If the individual was harmless and not doing anything wrong the officials could have been staying with him and asking others that he not be approached by someone stressed at his presence for his protection as well.

If you were talking to someone, that could be anyone, on your phone as you passed his car and describing the plate number, the car and the individual it is extremely unlikely you would be approached. You are also more likely to be approached by someone on a seldom used trail than a frequented lot. So sorry that this happened and what ever the cause please continue to enjoy the trails!

As a side note, most smartphones do provide an easier way than going all the way into the phone application to call 911. Check your manual.

3 hours of sitting "reading the newspaper" would make me suspicious.
3 hours of hanging out, having coffee, listening to the birds, etc. would not.

Often mere observation that cannot be put into words helps to decide whether someone makes you nervous or not. Is that car in the dark with the guy in it in the Zealand parking lot waiting for the right moment to break into a car, or is it me waiting for Sabrina's crew to come out at the end of their Bonds traverse?

That said, the police reaction sounds like they definitely knew something they weren't sharing with the rest of us. Perhaps there have been problems at this location? Or they know this individual? Or they ran the plate and got back either a warrant or a negative history? No way to know.

If you feel scared and threatened, you gotta do what you gotta do. But by the same token, if I get rousted out of the parking lot, my wife's gonna kick your arse when she doesn't have a ride home after her hike.

I've had the cops called on me and got stopped while walking down a village street. Someone called the cops because they saw a stranger. It was a women, I felt bad for spooking her just walk down the street. The cops were no problem and I just keep up my walk after their visit. No big deal.

Maddy said:

Thanks a whole lot for your support. It's still quite raw today. I really needed your input and understanding.
You don't forget something like this in the blink of an eye.

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something like what? imagine how people who actually experience violence feel...

Yes police can use excessive force. Yes police make mistakes. But if I am fearful in a situation and I am afraid of bring attacked, raped, murdered I am going to call the police. Period. I am not going to give the person invoking these instincts the benefit of doubt. At the risk of sounding sexist, I don't think men really understand the fear women have of getting raped.

7-11-09 Bushwhack to North Jackson Mountain Maine:

I stayed in my car at the trail head to "Little Jackson" for 4 hours waiting for the woods to dry out after some morning rain. My car was solitary at the trail head. I alternated between reading The Northeast Brewing News (newspaper), a book about Teddy Roosevelt, and napping. This sort of thing is common for me and others who drive long distances to play in the scrub.

I know for a fact a male and female parked nearby and walked by while I was reading the brewing news because I can still see me tipping the paper down to take a look. I don't think I shot them a smile (phew...)

I had on my person a 5" fixed blade SOG knife, which was normal for me to carry in the woods at the time.

Can you imagine the BS I would have had to put up with if the cops
got a suspicious male in the woods call? They would have found a grubby dude in a lived-in looking car carrying a weapon (Which I am legally allowed to carry) with a story that is going to sound stupid to a cop.

At best I would have got a severe hassling. At worst -- I would have been hauled downtown. Neither of those options I'm fond of.

What I'm saying here is your ounce of caution could easily turn into several tons of pain for a perfectly innocent person. Something to think about before phoning in the cavalry.





PS: Ive been pulled over for a very minor marked lanes violation and had 3 cops show up even tho I wasn't giving the first cop any lip and I didn't have any outstanding anythings on me or the car. 3 cops does not mean jack.

PPS: Methinks many men on this board are biting their tongues right now.

PPPS: Me-also-thinks there is more to this story.

PPPPS: I just wanted to see a PS with 4 Ps.

Brambor said:

I trust your intuition on this one.

From male point of view: I think your dog is the best deterrent to an attacker as well as an opportunity to buy some precious seconds to get into the car.

Also an idea is to also dial 911, tell them the situation and then keep them on the line while you go to your car. In general I also think us hikers are often in better shape than the lowlife assailants. You could probably wear him out just running around cars until police or another car arrived.

These predators usually seek the weakest and easiest prey. Your dog just complicates the plan. I think a would be troublemaker is going to choose another victim.

Hindsight ... though ... there is alway a chance that an attack with a person pulling out a gun and shooting a dog and victim is possible but those attacks too work more in our minds than in reality. It is pretty hard to shoot a moving target at 20 feet or more. If I was an attacker I would move on to an easier pick.

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+1.

My wife walks alone in the woods at night all the time. Well, alone in the sense of no human companion. There's a 60 pound Malinois alongside her with a very proprietary interest in her welfare. Which is why she got him in the first place. On at least one occasion, he persuaded a guy to get back on his snowmobile and leave.

Maddy, ya done the right thing.

MichaelJ said:

As a side note, most smartphones do provide an easier way than going all the way into the phone application to call 911. Check your manual.

3 hours of sitting "reading the newspaper" would make me suspicious.
3 hours of hanging out, having coffee, listening to the birds, etc. would not.

Often mere observation that cannot be put into words helps to decide whether someone makes you nervous or not. Is that car in the dark with the guy in it in the Zealand parking lot waiting for the right moment to break into a car, or is it me waiting for Sabrina's crew to come out at the end of their Bonds traverse?

That said, the police reaction sounds like they definitely knew something they weren't sharing with the rest of us. Perhaps there have been problems at this location? Or they know this individual? Or they ran the plate and got back either a warrant or a negative history? No way to know.

If you feel scared and threatened, you gotta do what you gotta do. But by the same token, if I get rousted out of the parking lot, my wife's gonna kick your arse when she doesn't have a ride home after her hike.

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Thanks Michael.. I will check my look into my I phone a little bit more. It's brand new.

And please tell Sabrina that if you do get hauled off she can call me and I will go get her!

sardog1 said:

+1.

My wife walks alone in the woods at night all the time. Well, alone in the sense of no human companion. There's a 60 pound Malinois alongside her with a very proprietary interest in her welfare. Which is why she got him in the first place. On at least one occasion, he persuaded a guy to get back on his snowmobile and leave.

Maddy, ya done the right thing.

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I agree with you that Maddy did the right thing, and this is not directed at you sardog. But I question the whole "as long as you have a dog, you're probably safe" view. Here's why - while walking my dog one day, I had a guy pull up in a white pickup truck, get out, leave his driver door open and his truck running while approaching me and my dog with his hand out holding dog biscuits. He didn't ask if it was ok to give her a treat; he was fast approaching fully intending to give it to her. I felt uneasy and backed up all the while saying, "no thank you" repeatedly. When I began saying it louder, he stopped, returned to his truck and drove off. Now, his actions could have been very innocent, and perhaps he was just clueless as to what his actions looked like from my perspective, or he could carry dog biscuits with him in the event he spots someone alone but she has a dog. Trust me, my lab would have easily given me up for the biscuits! I have no illusion about that. I understand why runners and cyclists might carry dog biscuits to distract an angry dog, but why would somebody stop driving, leave their vehicle running and the door open, to give a dog biscuits without saying anything to the owner first? Innocent idiot? Maybe. Potential assailant? Possibly. Do I want to risk taking the time to find out? Nope. Do I trust my dog with the bottomless pit for a stomach and the "I'll-do-anything-for-a-biscuit" attitude to protect me? Not on your life!

The fact is a lot of violent acts are committed against women by men. Lots of children are also hurt by pedophiles who are primarily men. Women and children statistically have lots of reasons not to trust men. It's unfortunate that the minority of bad men make us cautious about most men, but had Maddy not done what she did, and gotten hurt, I have no doubt there are those on here that would have crucified her for not calling the police. Before criticizing Maddy for "overreacting," ask yourself what you would have advised your daughter to do, or any woman that you love.

daxs said:

At the risk of sounding sexist, I don't think men really understand the fear women have of getting raped.

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And I don't think women understand the fear that some men particularly minorities have of winding up injured or dead at the hands of police. Rodney King in LA, the Haitian in NY, innocents on death row, etc. If 3 police descended on me when I was doing nothing and gave me a heart attack, is the 911 caller guilty of murder? Asking the police for help in a bad situation is quite reasonable, having 3 police arrive in a threatening manner is not [but is the fault of the police not the caller].

One possibility not yet mentioned is that the place was or might be becoming a hangout for consensual gay sex. While almost certainly legal, police do not like these areas in their town and may engage in intimidating activities to chase them elsewhere. I mention this only in response to the original note and don't wish to start a discussion of smart police procedure vs. civil rights.