Toe bang!

Hi all

Took my first hike in QUITE A WHILE (3 months I think)...one problem that I had pretty bad is what I call "toe bang"...as you go down...your toes hit the front of the boot and, after doing this for a while...it really doesn't feel too good. I've got a really pretty purple "blood blister" and will lose the nail in quite a nasty fashion in about a month or so...

I know that one of the biggest issues is "do your boots fit". I'm pretty sure they do...quite nicely as far as I could tell when I bought them...even with the help from the "boot fitter"...

Anyway, this is a problem that I have had for quite some time...and thought I'd finally ask if anyone else has this issue...and what they do to prevent or decrease it...

Thanks.

me too!

I wish I had an answer for you, but unfortunately I have this problem, too. It's really only a big issue with the koflachs, but I think my foot is just hard to fit. One foot is a good half size smaller than the other, I have been told when fitting ski boots that I have a very narrow ankle (fantastic! what do i do about that, exactly??!) and I tend to need extra room in just the toe box area. I think this simply makes me hard to fit and therefore there's going to be some extra room somewhere in my boot, hence my foot moves around. When I last was seriously winter hiking (several years ago now, unfortunately) I basically did a huge amount of damage to most of my toenails, though it wasn't seriously painful. I'll be interested to see if anyone has any really good ideas about how to "fix" this problem. So thanks for posting!

The toenail thing isn't a big deal for me...don't wear sandles much so it's ok

It HURTS going down that mountain and can really be a total drag especially when the "out" is lllloonnngg.

So GLAD to hear it's not just me...

FWIW - It sounds like your boots are a bit too big. Maybe putting in a thicker insole? I save the insoles from my shoes and boots, so have accumulated quite an assortment. And, I sometimes swap insoles between boots to get a better fit.

Another suggestion - since your foot is sliding forward - there are some lacing techniques which might help. One is to double the shoelaces over the instep, which helps to "lock" the heel into the boot. That way you can make the lower half of the laces a bit tighter and the upper looser.

And of course, wearing an extra liner or sock can increase the volume in the boot also.

My solution? Hike more, you will lose your
big toenails....problem solved!


Seriously, this happens to me too towards the end of long hikes - even in trail runners. If it were happening early in a hike, I'd suspect it were my shoes. Were you on a longer than usual hike or wearing a shoe you hadn't hiked in before?

This is a common problem, certainly not just a few people. It's very sensitive to several things: boot fit; the nature of your boots; and your gait.

Boot fit: Boots that are too small, too large, or too high "volume" can allow this to happen. Too small is obvious; your toes are crunched. Too large is also an issue, because the large boot allows your foot to slide forward and bang into the front. Most peoples' footwear is properly fitted for length however, so the too small / too large issue is not usually a problem. The usual culprit is volume. Boots come in a range of volumes, which is a description of how high and wide an instep the boot accommodates. Feet vary widely. A low volume foot is flat and narrow; a high volume foot is tall and wide. Most women's feet are lower volume. Unfiortunately for women, most boots are high volume. This is because 1. the lasts are designed for men; and 2. it's cheaper to make, becasue it's easier to pull out the last. So a boot that "fits" length and width wise, might still not fit volume wise. What to check for (and a good fitter should always check this) is that the laces will draw the boot snugly down onto your instep. This is what provides the "hold back" that keeps your toes from banging into the end. Test this by walking down an incline ramp at the shop, and trying to jam your feet forward. (This is a comparison test - you can always jam your feet forward; you're comparing how well different boots minimize that.) For the boots you have, adding padding in the tongue area can reduce the volume of the boot and provide better hold back.

Boot nature: Toe bang used to be a lot more common, when everyone climbed in rock hard plastic or double leather boots. The advent of softer boots has helped a lot. If you can find a sofrter boot that does everything you need in terms of warmth, equipment interface, etc., it may help. (This is one of the things that has helped popularize the use of trail running shoes instead of big boots in the summer.)

Your gait: The way you foot strike on downhills has a big effect on whether your foot slides forward. If you are striking heavily on the heel, with a fairly straight leg, basically landing on bone, this encourages your foot to slide forward and bang. A better gait is to bend the knees and get a little more forward over your feet, in an athletic stance (like a good alpine skier). You will land more on the whole foot, sometimes even on the forefoot, and you will be less likely to slide forward. (That kind of gait is better for other reasons, too: less stress on joints, less likely to do the heel-slip-fall-on-butt, etc.. Plus, your quads will get a better workout!) If you are hiking with poles, resist the conventional wisdon to make your poles longer for the downhills. What the longer poles do is set you back on your heels and put you in a non-athletic stance.

Good luck!

Tom

Sizing and lacing

hwh, you have started a thread that will be read and appreciated by many of us. Already I've learned three new ideas...
I especially like the easy fixes like different insoles, more padding for the tongue, and triple lacing over the instep when your heel is snug in its cup.
One thing I have tried that works for me: buy your boots 1/2 size larger than your measured shoe size, to account for heavier socks and just to have more room for your toes before they run up against the front of the boot. More room for them plus triple lacing has mostly eliminated the problem for me... good luck to you.

una_dogger said:

My solution? Hike more, you will lose your
big toenails....problem solved!


Seriously, this happens to me too towards the end of long hikes - even in trail runners. If it were happening early in a hike, I'd suspect it were my shoes. We're you on a longer than usual hike or wearing a shoe you hadn't hiked in before?

Click to expand...

It had been quite some time since we've hiked...about 3 months. The problem usually starts about 1 1/2 miles on the way DOWN...and can be pretty bad by the end of the hike.

This was not a particularily long hike...about 8 miles...so, the last 2 1/2 pretty sore...

Kevin Rooney said:

Another suggestion - since your foot is sliding forward - there are some lacing techniques which might help. One is to double the shoelaces over the instep, which helps to "lock" the heel into the boot. That way you can make the lower half of the laces a bit tighter and the upper looser.

And of course, wearing an extra liner or sock can increase the volume in the boot also.

Click to expand...

Can you explain the lacking "lock"? Is this where you "knot" the laces at the ankle...then continue lacking up the ankle to then do a final "tie" at the top? I've heard of this...especially to keep feet "warmer" as it allows you to keep the toe box loose for ventilation and circulation while keeping the rest of the boot tighter...?

TCD said:

For the boots you have, adding padding in the tongue area can reduce the volume of the boot and provide better hold back.

Tom

Click to expand...

What is recommended for adding padding to the tongue area? How would you add it to prevent it from moving throughout the day?

hikes-with-him said:

Can you explain the lacking "lock"? Is this where you "knot" the laces at the ankle...then continue lacking up the ankle to then do a final "tie" at the top? I've heard of this...especially to keep feet "warmer" as it allows you to keep the toe box loose for ventilation and circulation while keeping the rest of the boot tighter...?

Click to expand...

In essence, yes. I usually find that just drawing the laces a second time over the instep - usually about 4th or 5th eyelet from the toe - is enough to create friction so the laces won't slip. When I use this method, the lower lace is typically tighter than the upper. This helps prevent the foot from slipping forward on the downhills, and with a looser upper section the circulation won't be cut off. Finding a happy medium is a bit tougher in winter, of course. There's a fine line between just right and too tight (cutting off circulation).

Also - keep in mind that the shape of our foot changes somewhat when we hike regularly, and since you've been 'away' for about 3 months, that might have caused this problem or at least contributed to it. Any measures you take in the short-term might need to be reversed once your foot readjusts to the rigors of hiking regularly.

Good luck. Sometimes it's rather minute changes that work for me.

Back to basics

This might be something you're already doing, but in case you're not:

Sit down to put your boots on. After putting your foot in the boot, lift your foot and (gently) slam your heel into the heel of the boot. Keep it positioned there as tightly as you can, by pressing into the boot heel, while lacing by whatever method you choose. If the boots fit well, this will probably eliminate your problem. If you don't do this, it's very possible that the problem will arise on long downhill stretches even regardless of the fit.

TCD said:

Your gait: The way you foot strike on downhills has a big effect on whether your foot slides forward. If you are striking heavily on the heel, with a fairly straight leg, basically landing on bone, this encourages your foot to slide forward and bang. A better gait is to bend the knees and get a little more forward over your feet, in an athletic stance (like a good alpine skier). You will land more on the whole foot, sometimes even on the forefoot, and you will be less likely to slide forward. (That kind of gait is better for other reasons, too: less stress on joints, less likely to do the heel-slip-fall-on-butt, etc.. Plus, your quads will get a better workout!)

Click to expand...

Shortening your downhill stride may also help with achieving this gait.

Doug

Kevin Rooney said:

In essence, yes. I usually find that just drawing the laces a second time over the instep - usually about 4th or 5th eyelet from the toe - is enough to create friction so the laces won't slip. When I use this method, the lower lace is typically tighter than the upper. This helps prevent the foot from slipping forward on the downhills, and with a looser upper section the circulation won't be cut off. Finding a happy medium is a bit tougher in winter, of course. There's a fine line between just right and too tight (cutting off circulation).

Click to expand...

I tighten the laces over the instep by adding an overhand (knot) or two in the laces over the instep.

For boots with hooks at the upper lacing points, I generally put the overhands above and below the first (lowest) set of hooks.

Backpacker Magazine has an article on lacing techniques: http://www.backpacker.com/gear/5245 The illustration on the first page shows an overhand knot on boot laces. The article gets into a number of fancier techniques--I just stick to simple overhands.

Doug

For boots where I have added padding to the tongue (usually ski boots) I just use the same boot fitting material they use in shops. Often your local shop can give you some spare pieces of it. Insole material works too, many varieties. If you need a lot of padding, and you have an old discarded pair of boots kicking around, you can cut the tongues off and use them to "double" part of the tongue on your boot (that much material is only necessary if you have a really bad fitting boot, with way too high a volume for your foot). I put the padding between the tongue and the laces, or in gussetted or overlap boots, between the tongue and the outer boot. It will usually stay put fairly well. Once you're sure everything fits right, you can glue padding in place with shoe goo or equivalent.

This may be too simple to even mention, but I keep my toe nails as short as possible, especially remembering to trim them all before any hike. Because of my feet, I've always had boots that don't fit perfectly and I've never lost a toe nail to boot bang. I've had plenty of other issues, but not that one .

hikes-with-him said:

What is recommended for adding padding to the tongue area? How would you add it to prevent it from moving throughout the day?

Click to expand...

Try these. I have them in several of my hiking boots.
They are very sticky so you might want to just use tape to check the exact position before you peel them back and stick them on.
http://www.amazon.com/Pairs-Large-T...SCCA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329842070&sr=8-1

hikes-with-him said:

What is recommended for adding padding to the tongue area? How would you add it to prevent it from moving throughout the day?

Click to expand...

You used to be able to get felt heel pads at the drugstore--perhaps you still can. Such a pad would make a reasonable tongue pad if suitably trimmed.

Doug

I've had a few problems with toe bang over the years. I now buy boots a half-size larger than previously. I buy boots that fit my feet. I keep my toenails short. I use the right thickness of socks to match the volume of the boot. I use a surgeon's knot at the top of my instep. I tie the laces with a special knot. I don't use the top set of hooks. And I use SOLE footbeds if the volume is still too great.

I certainly agree with close cropped toenails. Winter was always worst time for toe bang for me because of the ramp like decline. Summer I usually rock hop stepping to uphill facing side of rocks so it was more like walking down stairs with a heel first plant. I also noted that no matter how I tied my laces the up hill flexing and extensions and foot perspiration all caused my laces to loosen and socks to move. Fresh change or adjustment of socks and retightening of laces before the descent seem to have worked wonders for me.