Another "Donation" to the S&R Fund ? - Mt Madison Rescue

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peakbagger

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http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120508/NEWS07/120509892&source=RSS

Sure looks cut and dried.

While hiking the Lincoln Lafayette loop on Sunday I saw a couple of groups with zero gear, no backpacks or fanny packs up on the ridge as well as several groups going up Falling Waters at 2 PM in the afternoon with minimal gear. Its light until 8 these days so they may have had some great views but its definitely that time of year. Somehow the "Hike Safe" rollout is not getting through to some folks.
 
No more bushwhacking?

Although no fine has likely been assessed at this point, this seems like a very likely candidate case.

In the list of things the hiker did wrong, F&G says, "he went off trail." Is this to mean that anyone found to have gone off trail, even as an intentional itinerary, is liable for fine if a rescue is required? If not, do you have to file an itinerary somewhere stating that your trip is going to be off trails?

This is a very slippery slope.
 
expat said:
Although no fine has likely been assessed at this point, this seems like a very likely candidate case.

In the list of things the hiker did wrong, F&G says, "he went off trail." Is this to mean that anyone found to have gone off trail, even as an intentional itinerary, is liable for fine if a rescue is required? If not, do you have to file an itinerary somewhere stating that your trip is going to be off trails?
Click to expand...
I'll bet that because he had "medical issues", he can claim that as excuse and avoid a fine just like the Eagle Scout did

I think that this guy did not intend to go off trail, i.e. he got lost. If you get lost bushwhacking, you doubly deserve censure because you should have known better. If you break your leg bushwhacking intentionally and need to be carried out hopefully you can tell the rescuers whare you are.
 
My feet cringed when I read he was wearing rubber boots. Yikes. What did this guy do right? (Carry a cell phone to call for help?)
 
knee high rubber boots

knee high rubber boots!:D no drink or food to madison?:confused: I'm hoping mental illness is involved..

the off trail has me concerned, I constantly "go off trail" when I'm snowboarding in the ravines and gulfs of the prezzis..
 
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expat said:
This is a very slippery slope.
Click to expand...
It sure is.

I for one am getting pretty tired of the F&G press releases. The implicit message is always, "You must do everything exactly the way we tell you to, otherwise we can and will hit you with a life-altering fine."

I'd be willing to throw a few bucks into the pot even for this guy's rescue. If it buys me a feeling of freedom, it's worth it for me. I understand the concepts of personal responsibility and money, believe me, and considering everything, I stand by my statement. You all are welcome to your own opinions.
 
Mixed Feelings

While I have to agree that this person sounds like someone who was out of his league doing what he did, it may be worth pointing out that there are people like myself who do trail running loops with pretty minimal gear and late starts. I did the Falling waters Loop starting at 3:35 pm on Sunday, armed with a bag of Skittles, a large cookie, 24 oz. of water, a warm layer and a shell, and a couple of pinch flashlights ( finished with 2 hours of daylight left, BTW). I do this kind of stuff all the time, with careful consideration of weather, route conditions, familiarity, and timing - and I'm not the only one. And yes, there were many furrowed brows and disapproving tones on Sunday from people who aren't familiar with the practice of running in the mountains - something I can expect on almost every run, and trying to patiently explain what I am doing doesn't seem to help. One of the classics is because I am typically running with no shirt while most hikers are wearing jackets, for some odd reason, even though I am wearing a pack, they jump to the assumption that because I am not wearing much, that I don't HAVE ANY GEAR.

I guess I am posting this just to point out that just because you see somebody with a tiny pack or starting late in the day, you shouldn't assume that they are reckless, foolish, or ill prepared. At the same time, I did see people on Sunday who did not look very experienced, without any type of pack, who I could visualize getting into trouble quite easily. So I am left with an uncomfortable feeling of "do as I say, not as I do" that is hard to resolve.

It makes me wonder if where we are headed is a place where mountain running with minimal gear is in itself, considered "reckless" - that would be a sad day indeed.

But geez - rubber boots?
 
peakbagger;374547 Somehow the "Hike Safe" rollout is not getting through to some folks.[/QUOTE said:
You can only do the best you can. Sending the message doesn't mean it is recieved.

Is ignorance the same of irresponsible? I wasn't there so I can't judge.

The rescuers are proabably much more compassionate than the average person. They see it all and keep doing their job. If any rescuers read this thank you for what you do.
Click to expand...
 
But why?

Anyone know why he was out there outfitted the way he was? I can't imagine he was out for a hike for the sake of hiking, not with rubber boots, but that begs the question: what was his mission? He must have had a reason to be out there as he was.
 
As always, first and foremost, it is good this guy lived. :)

Secondly, wow. :eek:

expat said:
Although no fine has likely been assessed at this point, this seems like a very likely candidate case.

In the list of things the hiker did wrong, F&G says, "he went off trail." Is this to mean that anyone found to have gone off trail, even as an intentional itinerary, is liable for fine if a rescue is required? If not, do you have to file an itinerary somewhere stating that your trip is going to be off trails?

This is a very slippery slope.
Click to expand...

I never like to see "leaving late in the day" quoted either. There is a difference between getting a late start on your plans ("running late") and planning a late start to a hike with experience, headlamps, and extra batteries/bulbs.

However, in this case, it appears going off trail (if purposeful) and leaving late were two bad ideas among many.

Perhaps the medical condition, when and if it comes to light, will also explain some of the apparent questionable decision-making. Unfortunately, we often don't get enough details of these stories to get a full picture.

Book idea for the writers on site: tell the tale of the ridiculous rescues in the northeast....interview these people to find out what was going on inside their heads when they made the decision to say....drink a bottle of JD and pass out in the snow for one example. Anyone remember what mountain that was?
 
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If someone is out on a trail run in NH, here is the mimimum "ten essentials" hike safe list which ostensibly would need to be in your possession if rescued.

I expect few trail runners I have encountered would have this bare essentials list. Some do but many have at best a small fanny pack with bottle holsters. Although things can be densely packed for most this would require a daypack.

The list was copied from the Hike Safe NH list. Of course as far as I am aware no distinct criteria is specfically called out to decide if someone gets billed or not. I will leave that discussion to other threads.

Map
Compass
Warm Clothing :: Sweater or Pile Jacket, Long Pants (wool or synthetic, NOT cotton), Hat (wool)
Extra Food and Water
Flashlight or Headlamp
Matches/Firestarters
First Aid Kit/Repair Kit
Whistle
Rain/Wind Jacket & Pants
Pocket Knife

#11 (not on the official list) common sense

I did on occasion leave a map home, now I leave a spare set of AMC WMG maps in the pack. They wouldnt last long in the wind, but I can check it off.

I carry a lightweight balaclava in place of a wool hat. I find in windy conditions it stays on and covers more skin area

I am just about covered expect for the rain pants. I generally wear nylon zip pants and carry a pair of lightweigth poly pro bottoms. They arent water proof but I do carry a rescue bivy (basically space blanket thats sealed on the sides. I generally will not use rain pants when trying to hike as the collect too much moisture. My jacket and upper layer cover my core.
 
Tim Seaver said:
I guess I am posting this just to point out that just because you see somebody with a tiny pack or starting late in the day, you shouldn't assume that they are reckless, foolish, or ill prepared. At the same time, I did see people on Sunday who did not look very experienced, without any type of pack, who I could visualize getting into trouble quite easily. So I am left with an uncomfortable feeling of "do as I say, not as I do" that is hard to resolve.
Click to expand...

Hey Tim -

Maybe resolve it this way - what you are doing is carrying an appropriate amount of gear for your experience level, physical condition, and personal comfort level.

We each carry a different level of experience, various ability to handle emergencies, and a spectrum of decision-making abilities. The gear list is important, but it's one of multiple factors that goes into whether one is prepared..and it's not the most important IMO. I'm sure you know all this, but this is how I resolve some of my choices that go against the grain of conventional wisdom....like late starts that I tend to enjoy some days...or solo winter hiking and backpacking with which I am comfortable....for others it's bushwhacking deep into the wilderness...or climbing vertical walls.

For example, give me all the "right gear" on some list but if I try to solo Whitehorse Ledge with my experience level (ahem...indoor gym) and end up needing a rescue...my bad for reaching beyond my own limits.

Enjoy the shirtless ridge runs! I'll keep an eye out for you. You should be easy to spot.;)


Edit: Incidentally, there would be no issues with the gear I carry on hikes nor in winter - I actually carry more than most in winter and take what I need to spend the night warm and dry...part of the responsibility of hiking solo in winter IMO.
 
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He left late in the day for the hike, not allowing enough time to complete it;
Raven said:
I never like to see "leaving late in the day" quoted either. There is a difference between getting a late start on your plans ("running late") and planning a late start to a hike with experience, headlamps, and extra batteries/bulbs.
Click to expand...

You beat me to the punch. Since when is there a curfew? (Besides winter credit on the last day of winter ;)) I've started up Tecumseh after 4pm in winter with the intention of watching the sun set and descending under headlamp.

You'd better be sure you get done your PT before the sun sets, Scott ;)

Tim
 
Tim Seaver said:
But geez - rubber boots?
Click to expand...
It is spring and perhaps he was concerned about stream crossings. Or perhaps he was used to hiking in swamps. Maybe his other available footwear was even less appropriate...

My point is that while his choice of footwear does not appear to have been appropriate to those of us who are experienced with hiking in the NE, there might have been some (as yet unknown) logic behind it. I (and others on this BBS) have hiked in the NE wearing rubber boots... (K-boots or Mouse boots)

While this particular hiker appears to have been a poorly prepared beginner, one thing that he did correctly was carry and use a cellphone. It enabled him to successfully call for help after he realized that he was in trouble. It would have been better for him to have the knowledge, experience, and equipment to stay out of trouble or get himself out of trouble on his own, however given that he was in trouble, calling for help was a good thing to do.

Doug
 
DougPaul said:
It is spring and perhaps he was concerned about stream crossings. Or perhaps he was used to hiking in swamps. Maybe his other available footwear was even less appropriate...

My point is that while his choice of footwear does not appear to have been appropriate to those of us who are experienced with hiking in the NE, there might have been some (as yet unknown) logic behind it. I (and others on this BBS) have hiked in the NE wearing rubber boots... (K-boots or Mouse boots)

While this particular hiker appears to have been a poorly prepared beginner, one thing that he did correctly was carry and use a cellphone. It enabled him to successfully call for help after he realized that he was in trouble. It would have been better for him to have the knowledge, experience, and equipment to stay out of trouble or get himself out of trouble on his own, however given that he was in trouble, calling for help was a good thing to do.

Doug
Click to expand...

After 30 years in the backcountry, I've come to the conclusion that all the proactive attempts to educate the public, while very good and needed. There will always be guys out there hiking in "rubber boots" god love em, maybe darwin was right.:eek: For all this dudes mistakes, Im glad he's ok.
 
hikerbrian said:
I for one am getting pretty tired of the F&G press releases. The implicit message is always, "You must do everything exactly the way we tell you to, otherwise we can and will hit you with a life-altering fine."
Click to expand...
These rescue reports are used as media events to push their instructions for beginners. They also generally include a simplified "know-it-all" section listing exactly what the victim did wrong and what he should have done (all carefully selected post-accident*). Most incidents are actually due to a combination of factors...

Note that the first thing that the victim did wrong is to be from out of state as noted in the second word in the report...

* I don't know about anyone else ( :) ), but I always prepare and pack pre-hike rather than post-hike... (ie the world is causal... (def: in electrical engineering, causal means that time only proceeds forward and you do not know the future from the present))

These messages may be helpful to some beginners, but in agreement with others on this BBS, I fear that officialdom will blindly apply these guidelines for beginners as standards for all.

Doug
 
sierra said:
After 30 years in the backcountry, I've come to the conclusion that all the proactive attempts to educate the public, while very good and needed. There will always be guys out there hiking in "rubber boots" god love em, maybe darwin was right.:eek: For all this dudes mistakes, Im glad he's ok.
Click to expand...
There will always be beginners and inexperienced. In spite of our attempts to deny it, all of us were once beginners and/or inexperienced. (However, some of us did have the luck/wisdom to start under competent tutors or to study up before going out.)

Note that the sport would die without a supply of potentially inexperienced new blood.

Doug
 
Map
Compass
Warm Clothing :: Sweater or Pile Jacket, Long Pants (wool or synthetic, NOT cotton), Hat (wool)
Extra Food and Water
Flashlight or Headlamp
Matches/Firestarters
First Aid Kit/Repair Kit
Whistle
Rain/Wind Jacket & Pants
Pocket Knife
Click to expand...

That list is pretty doable for running, using light layers - I carry a tiny orange bag with a razor blade, a mini-compass, and a micro-lighter. The food and water thing I find interesting, as for the most part these are more for comfort than survival given the general time-frame for rescues in the Whites , with the possible exception of heat-stroke from dehydration. A quote from a recent rescue discussed here:

The state, however, did not see it that way. Horgan had the gear and the skills to survive hostile conditions, Maj. Kevin Jordan of the Department of Fish and Game's law enforcement division said, but "that's a separate action than what got her into this situation."What got her into the situation were a series of errors in judgment, he said. She did not heed weather warnings, bring adequate navigation equipment or pack extra food. "The whole situation could have been avoided completely.""
Click to expand...

The amount of food she had was completely immaterial to the rescue, yet it is presented as if it is - which makes me think that regardless of whether the lack of any of the "10 essentials" actually plays a part in creating the need for a rescue, it's potentially going to be used as an excuse to charge people, even where having those items would not have affected the outcome. I will hold out hope that the powers that be will not take this course, which seems a bit dishonest.

DougPaul said:
It is spring and perhaps he was concerned about stream crossings. Or perhaps he was used to hiking in swamps. Maybe his other available footwear was even less appropriate...
My point is that while his choice of footwear does not appear to have been appropriate to those of us who are experienced with hiking in the NE, there might have been some (as yet unknown) logic behind it. I (and others on this BBS) have hiked in the NE wearing rubber boots... (K-boots or Mouse boots)
Doug
Click to expand...

Good points, Doug. Like the food issue, if the footwear wasn't actually part of the problem...
 
Tim Seaver said:
Good points, Doug. Like the food issue, if the footwear wasn't actually part of the problem...
Click to expand...
Agreed. They may have just been hunting for mud to throw at the victim (and perhaps contribute to the politics of outrage at out-of-state hikers who happen to get into trouble). On the other hand, such secondary info does help one to estimate/guesstimate the general competence of the victim.

In this specific case, if the boots were adequately comfortable and gave adequate traction it doesn't matter what they were made of. And, as you note, he didn't ask for rescue because of blisters or (thermally) cold feet.

Doug
 
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