Soft Shells???

I have been looking at these "soft shells" made with that "Schoeller" material but at first glance I fail to see the benefits. Not only are they expensive, but they aren't waterproof and they don't seem like they would be very warm since the material is so thin. They do seem to be "all the rage." Those of you who one one of these, can you fill me in?

As I understand it, it's not so much the outside but the inside. Ones I've seen or had people tell me about use a Polar-tec or Gore material which acts much like the Wind-bloc mateiral of 8 or so years ago. It's 100% wind proof, not very breathable compare to regular fleece or the latest versions of the wind-pro (or whatever Polar/Gore calls it) which breathes better but is not 80 MPH proof. Water-proof no, but in winter when most precip will fall as snow won't matter, it brushes off.

Of the two old wind-bloc fleece I own, the jacket has too rough of a finish to shed snow well. The vest I use a lot in winter as I'm a warm hiker. The fleece in the vest is pretty smooth allowing for snow to brush off.

If you are prone not to hike in cold rain, soft shell may be nice thing to have. If you like to hike in April Showers or November Rain, a traditional shell may be better.

Mountain Hardware

I have a Mountain Hardware Conduit soft shell. I love it! It is the perfect top layer in all kinds of weather. I had it on climbing Carrigain a few weeks back (10 degrees) and was toasty to the point of having to shed layers quickly. The pit zips are the perfect variable for keeping the "bag of water" I sweat out during every trip to a minimum. So count me as a vote for yes.

Jason,
I just picked up a pair of the REI One Pant as a Christmas Present.
(They are marked down from $185 to $129).
Here are my thoughts - I stay pretty warm in the winter, and sometimes struggle between what to wear as a pant. I have my 8-year cordura hiking pants that are great in spring and fall. For winter hiking and XC-skiing, I usually wear a pair of TNF insulated tights and then sometimes a windpant over them. However, I have been looking for something different though. I'd like something that offers a looser fit, but is still pretty stretchy.

I don't like fleece pants for hiking skiing or climbing (as Mike mentioned) the snow does not brush off well. I perspire quite a bit inside normal nylon windpants when over my tights or fleece pants. I don't think my goretex pants breath well enough, even when unzipped to want to wear all day.

I started looking at these and thought they would be great as an all conditions pant for winter. I can still easily throw a goretex or wind pant over them on the windier summits, they have zip close pockets to put a couple of minor items into and at camp at night I can pull a pair of primaloft pants over them for full insulation (OK, if I ever get AROUND to buying the Primaloft pants). I probably would not wear them in the summer.

As a jacket, I don't think I would get near the range of use that I would from the pant. I wear a midweight smooth-finish stretch fleece that allows snow to brush off completely and air to circulate freely and since my upper body puts out quite a lot of heat (I am a big guy), I am afraid the one jacket just will not be breathable enough.

If anybodyt has some better ideas, please toss them out, as I think the $129 is quite a lot, but then again, if they last me 10 years, that's only $13/year

The Schoeller Fabric soft shells breathe better than Gore Tex (even XCR), and they tend to be more flexible and quieter (no "krinkle" like some stiff hard shells). The tradeoff is that they are not waterPROOF, like Goretex or other membrane fabrics. They are quite water repellent, and snow does not stick to them too badly.

As far as warmth is concerned, they are about the same. A windproof shell, whether it's a hard shell or a soft shell, needs insualtion layers under it to be warm in cold conditions.

I like my soft shell stuff (Cloudveil). But as Mike P. said, if it's going to rain hard, go for hard shell.

I think soft shell is all the rage because of the flexibility. Makes a big difference climbing. Not so big a difference hiking. And, of course, there is always looking cool (same reason "windstopper fleece" is popular).

TCD

breathability!

A base layer with a soft shell is far far more breathable than hiking in a nylon WB, Goretex or other, IMO. The soft shell is not as waterproof but in winter, most precip is of the solid kind anyways.

Try vigorous activity with a good baselayer and soft shell and you will never hike again in a WB nylon shell again (unless the precip is severe).

I recently bought a Scholler hat just to try it out, Its has warm as my fleece and less bulky. I'm in the market for pants for winter travel and have been looking at scholler products. then i say to my self, i dont want to have to buy two of something if i dont have too. thinki im going w/ gore xcr.

I bought a pair of Schoeller pants from EMS this year ($85? on sale). No side zips but exceptionally comfortable. I used them once with no insulation underneath and once with a pair of long underwear. Both times they were warm, flexible, and kept me dry.
They are now my new winter hiking pants (and early spring/late fall as well).

I also have a cloudveil jacket that I use skiing. So far it has worked well, but there is no hood.

Flexibility, comfort, and more comfort!

I hike, climb, and bushwhack in Cloudveil's Schoeller Dryskin Extreme 3XDry Symmetry pants and Hooded Ice Floe Jacket. Period.

I'll throw my lightweight summer rain jacket on over it if the snow turns wet, which happened once in a dozen trips last year.

The stuff works for me, and I can't see ever going back. They seem to have more insulating effect than the shells, and I only hike with a midweight base-layer and the SDE on over it. Never cold, except if I putter about somewhere too long, but that's par for any course of clothing. When on the summit I throw on my thick Retro-X windfleece and I'm impervious to just about anything.

Two thumb's up for the SDE 3X!

Doc McPeak said:

I hike, climb, and bushwhack in Cloudveil's Schoeller Dryskin Extreme 3XDry Symmetry pants and Hooded Ice Floe Jacket. Period.

I'll throw my lightweight summer rain jacket on over it if the snow turns wet, which happened once in a dozen trips last year.

The stuff works for me, and I can't see ever going back. They seem to have more insulating effect than the shells, and I only hike with a midweight base-layer and the SDE on over it. Never cold, except if I putter about somewhere too long, but that's par for any course of clothing. When on the summit I throw on my thick Retro-X windfleece and I'm impervious to just about anything.

Two thumb's up for the SDE 3X!

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Wondering what sorts of temperatures you are dealing with. Are you talking in deep cold (subzero) etc?

Jasonst said:

Wondering what sorts of temperatures you are dealing with. Are you talking in deep cold (subzero) etc?

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I prefer not to hike in extreme cold, but find the SDE works great down to about -20 (that's about my comfort limit) and up to about +20 for tight bushwhacks and blowing snow. Over +30, the stuff can start wetting up a bit. Not a problem for me on the climbs, and for the descents I often keep my Retro on back out to the car. I often bring a Marmot windshirt and extra layer for some of the long treks back to the car (ADKS often have long flatland walks out).

For the pants, its easy. Mid-weight base, pants. These things are not 100% windproof, but my legs rarely get cold, even in wind.

Soft shell

This is how I understand it. Hard shell, Goretex, is a semi-permiable membrane that allows water vapor, sweat, to exit and water droplets to shed. That's how it keeps you dry, base and mid layers keep you warm but must be able to let the water vapor out to the semi-permiable membrane to keep you dry. Normally, you make more water vapor when exerting yourself than the semi-permiable membrane can pass, so you are damp to wet inside the shell for a while when you rest. Soft shell fabrics are hygroscopic and pull water away from you to the outside and allow water vapor to pass easier. Unless you are in a torrential downpour, you should not get wet from the outside because the fabrics shed moisture so easily, in theory. Soft shell fabrics are lighter and have more stretch because there is no membrane in them. I have Marmot ATV pants and Patagonia Regulator layers and stretch demension jacket and they work as described. I can use thinner base and middle layers because they don't wet out as easily as normal Polarguard does. I use mine for ice climbing in the Daks and Whites and did the Presidential Traverse in March 2002 with this system without a problem. I've been comfortable down to -15 with this stuff and find it amazing. I'm using the same stuff I got in 2000 and none of it looks worn. It cost me $200.00 for the coat and $200.00 for the pants while my 3 layer Goretex cost $500.00 for the coat and $300.00 for the bibs. If I was going to go out when I could expect heavy rains, I'd switch to the hardshell, but normally I use the softshell now and am more comfortable.

What about overnights? Next week we'll spend 5 days/4 nights backpacking in the White Mountains, I have Goretex pants (5 year old) and Shoeller pants (brand new). Which one should I bring? Would the pants freeze overnight? I can't put it on while sleeping, my -20° down bag is warm enough and it will already be crowded with bottles, clothes, my own body, etc.

Doc McPeak said:

I hike, climb, and bushwhack in Cloudveil's Schoeller Dryskin Extreme 3XDry Symmetry pants and Hooded Ice Floe Jacket. Period.

I'll throw my lightweight summer rain jacket on over it if the snow turns wet, which happened once in a dozen trips last year.

The stuff works for me, and I can't see ever going back. They seem to have more insulating effect than the shells, and I only hike with a midweight base-layer and the SDE on over it...

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Me Too. I use and love the Schoelller fabric.

I use the Ice Flow jacket. Chose that one because I wanted the hood to flip on when bashing through the snow laden branches.

I use the mammut champ pants. I like the pants better than the jacket. It's nice to not have to spend 60% of my time opening and closing side zips to try and stay dry and warm while venting. I am concerned that it might be too much of a process to add the wind pants when breaking out above tree line. Only wish I had them once.

If you're looking to test first, start with the pants. MHO

Also note that this stuff is not as good wind protection. If I'm on the ridge in 0 temps with wind I have to add my Marmot Precip jacket over the top. But carrying a precip jacket/pants is better than carring the 2lb TNF hard shell.

JHS

So what do you use when?

The soft shell strategy sounds great, but can someone enlighten me on what you use over it and under it in different conditions? It seems to do everything a hard shell does except provide waterproof and windproof protection. If that's the case, then do you have to lug along your hard shell anyway?

Here's a scenario: I've climbed up to treeline in my soft shell jacket and can hear the wind howling up above me. I need to add insulation and wind protection before I venture higher. What do I do--put my hard shell on over my soft shell? Do I add a fleece or down jacket under the soft shell? Do I take the soft shell off entirely and pull the conventional hard shell and fleece jacket out of my pack?

I use my soft shell as a mid layer. I dont consider it to be a shell replacement... for me the soft shell simply expands the range of conditions in which I can forgo an actual shell. This is desirable as I find soft shell technology to be more comfortable, less restrictive and more breathable than 'hard' shells.

Basically I find them to be a more versatile fleece type jacket. One that can handle light rain and moderate wind better than my old mid layers could. In a downpour or on an extremely windy peak I still put my hard shell over my soft shell, but for the vast majority of the time I find myself wearing just my soft shell. And on day hikes when the forcast is clear or calls for only a slight rain, I dont even bother bringing my hard shell anymore.

Zeke, I ran into a similar situation to your hypothetical on a recent hike up Wright Peak in the dacks. When I hit treeline I was wearing just my soft shell, in my pack was an insulated jacket and a 2 ply goretex hardshell. Seeing that the wind was outrageous, I put my goretex jacket on over my soft shell. At night when I needed the extra warmth, the insulated jacket went on over the soft shell

Softshell

The soft shell is the shell. The Shoeller fabric is water resistant and windproof to a point and normaly is coated witha DWR. Soft shell systems breath more so you can stay drier easier during aerobic movement such as climbing. About the best place to get detailed info on this system is Patagonia's web site (Regulator) or Mark Twights book Extreme Alpinism. When I use my softshell system it goes like this. Base; Patagonia Regulator R.5 top and bottom Mid; R1, 2 or 3 top, maybe R1 bottom Shell; Marmot ATV pants and Patagonia Stretch Demension jacket. I carry a Patagonia DAS parka to put over top of the whole thing in case I get cold at a belay or rest break. When night time comes, I loose the outer plastic boots and maybe the jacket and climb in the -20 sleepiing bag. This system is designed to work best when you can get the layering thnig and your pace right so you do not feel like you are sweating at all. Unless it is a torrential downpour, you will stay dry and warm. You may cool off a little when resting- that's what the DAS is for. I know it sounds weird and differnet from "normal" layering, but the beauty is once dialed in, you don't have to shed layers when moving, simply add a belay parka on top at rest. I usd to spend a lot of time fidgiting with my Goretex bibs and jacket opening and closing zippers and flaps to vent or to close up to warm up, adding or subtracting fleece after dropping my pack and taking off the jacket, I'm sure you are familiar with the deal.

To answer Zeke's question: I thought the soft shell garments were designed to be practical to wear in about 85% (or pick your own number) of normal hiking weather conditions. You put it on at the trailhead and go hiking without worrying about adding/subtracting layers during the day. If you're planning on hiking above treeline where wind protection is needed or hiking in heavy rain where rain protection is needed or taking long breaks where more insulation is needed, then you're operating outside of the range that the clothing was designed for.

Well, all this input hasn't necessarily cleared anything up in my mind!! I guess the only way to know is to give it a shot. I agree with mediclimber that it is a total pain in the butt to try to wear goretex pants while hiking. I feel like I am forever zipping / unzipping to regulate temperature. I have the same problem though with Windstopper gloves and can't ever seem to find a happy medium with my hands. Perhaps this fabric is the holy grail - perhaps not. I think I will give it a shot though - nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Jasonst,

You should try a pair of light, uncoated polyester pants as outer shell pants in winter. They usually cost about $30 to $50 and can come with ankle zips or full zips. I use some all year round, with a variety of different insulating layers underneath and have no problems. I'll carry Precip pants if rain is a possibility.