Drawing the line between hiker and climber

Does anyone else have an internal definition of the line between a "hiker" and a "climber" . In no way do I mean to impact the thread on the King Ravine accident but frequently I see what I consider a "climbing" accident characterized by a "hiking" accident in the press. I guess to the general public, anyone getting out of their car and heading up a mountain is inherently a "climber" but my general definition is that when someone is on a active hiking trail described in the WMG barebooting, using snowshoes or microspikes I would consider them a "winter hiker" while someone actively using aids like crampons and ice axes on a "technical" route would be considered a "winter climber". I realize there is probably not a clear line as some trails like Ammo Ravine or the Blueberry Ledge trail could be either dependent on trail conditions but I sometime wonder if the public perception of winter hiking and the need to charge for rescues is somewhat clouded by the apparent interchangeability between hiker/climber in the press. As an example, the initial reports of the recent Huntington Ravine accident and some subsequent reports identified the individuals as "hikers" where I expect most folks on VFTT would identify then as climbers as they were ascending a technical route with aids.

Possibly the confusion is intentional by the hiking public as perhaps it sounds far more impressive during a post hike "war story" to describe climbing a mountain in the winter versus hiking up a mountain in the winter ?

I dont think there is a right or a wrong on this but would be curious on other folks opinion.

We here probably know the difference but the nonhiking nonclimbing public don't care about "semantics." People still ask if we use ropes and helmets when we say we are going for a summertime hike.

The press seems to use the words hiker and climber interchangeably.................

I think of a climber as one who ascends/descends a route using rope/helmet/technical axes (climbing gear) and a hiker as one who sticks to "walk-up" trails.

Just yesterday on my way to Great Gulf trailhead, I saw the sign on Rt. 16 asking "Climbers please sign in at Pinkham Notch" and thought to myself........that's not me! And sometimes when I'm trying to reassure my family that I'm not doing anything crazy out there, I tell them..........."Oh, I'm just going for a little snow-shoe"

audrey said:

the nonhiking nonclimbing public don't care about "semantics."

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I agree with Audrey. Interesting to see this topic b/c my husband and I had this same discussion this morning. My non-hiking friends often refer to what I do as mountain climbing - despite my attempts to educate them. I have "climbed" both rock and ice and try to impress upon them the distinction but especially in winter they simply don't get it.

The line between hiking and climbing is blurry at best and non-existent for many (particularly reporters....). I think the distinction is much stronger and better defined among those who actually do technical climbing (ie using ropes) than it is among non-technical climbers.

IMO (as a technical climber) a perfectly good definition might be:
* Hiking=travel on feet only (for a normal person), walking
* Climbing=travel on steep terrain using hands and feet (for a normal person). If a rope is needed, it is almost certainly climbing.
There are situations where a skilled person can walk up something that a "normal" or unskilled person require both hands and feet--this might be a blurry situation...


Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills (6th ed) defines the Classes as (this list is rock oriented, it is easily extended to snow and ice):
Class 1) Hiking
Class 2) Simple scrambling, with possible occasional use of the hands.
Class 3) Scrambling; a rope might be carried.
Class 4) Simple climbing, often with exposure. A rope is often used. A fall on Class-4 rock could be fatal.
Class 5) Where rock climbing begins in earnest. Climbing involves the use of a rope, belaying, and protection to protect the leader from a long fall.
Class 6) The rope and equipment is used to support weight and/or needed for forward progress. (added by me)

Using these definitions, I'd say that anything Class 3 or higher is definitely climbing, Class 2 could be hiking or climbing, and Class 1 is hiking (sort of by elimination...)

An ice axe (or other ice tools) can be viewed as an extension of one's hands--if it is being used for balance or to support weight then it becomes Class 2, 3 or higher. The way in which a tool is used would also be a factor.

Doug

I have this same difficulty when talking to casual acquaintances about hiking. If I say 'I climbed 3 mountains last weekend', some ask me if I used ropes, crampons and other protection. I usually say 'no, not rock climbing, just hiking'. But I still climbed!

What "gear" qualifies as technical gear? Ropes, protection, etc.?

Is Alex Honnold then, by that definition, a "climber"? Shoot, he's just got some shoes and some chalk. I carry more on a snowshoe behind my house...

If you're not sure, it's hiking.

Breaking it down by class is a good way to look at it, but I actually think it's even better to look at it based on the consequences of a fall. If you're in such an exposed area that falling equals serious injury or death, then it's climbing IMO. For me, this means when I am wearing a helmet and harness.

Good point.

Puma concolor said:

If you're in such an exposed area that falling equals serious injury or death, then it's climbing IMO. For me, this means when I am wearing a helmet and harness.

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So all the people with sneakers and T-shirts standing on the rim of Grand Canyon are climbers, just because every year a few are killed in falls?

I agree that some free climbers use virtually no equipment so that isn't a perfect determinant either.

I think Dougs post says it quite well. Class 3 is climbing for sure. To me the line is drawn when you can fall off and get hurt. I would great gully on Adams in winter is climbing for sure, Ammou ravine in winter-hiking. Out west some of the 14ers I consider climbing ie. Capitol, The Bells, and other class 3 and 4 peaks, these are peaks that you can have death falls off, other 14ers are hiking peaks ie.Bierstadt, Evans, Quandry. The accident on Adams also got me thinking on what are some of the tougest winter ascents in the Whites, the routes in King ravine I rank high on the list, other hard winter routes imo, central gully ( Hunningtons), gullys in Tucks, other ravines can also be tough ie. Cascade, madison gulf, and the great gulf headwall.

Tom Rankin said:

I have this same difficulty when talking to casual acquaintances about hiking. If I say 'I climbed 3 mountains last weekend', some ask me if I used ropes, crampons and other protection. I usually say 'no, not rock climbing, just hiking'. But I still climbed!

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I'm in the same boat. Like a lot of people I tend to use the terms interchangeably. Technically speaking there's no question I'm a hiker not a climber. However, I "climb" the stairs and I will say to someone, "I climbed Mt. Washington last week". On the other hand I always say "I'm going hiking" I never say "I'm going climbing."

Usage has a lot to do with it and I guess since I'm not a "climber" I'm not really defensive about the use of the term. But technically speaking I am in full agreement with the definitions given above.

RoySwkr said:

So all the people with sneakers and T-shirts standing on the rim of Grand Canyon are climbers, just because every year a few are killed in falls?

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Maybe if they hiked in from the Park entrance first rather than taking a car.

So will I now have to "hike the stairs" in my home, rather than climbing them?

JakeD said:

The Yosemite system.. 3rd class etc I do not think applies once there is snow and ice. that moves to the Water ice ratings or New England ice ratings

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I think the class part of the YDS can be applied to ice and snow, but not the decimal extensions of Class 5 (ie the x in 5.x).

Ratings systems for ice commonly used in the US:
* WI=water ice (liquid water that froze, tends not to have tiny air pockets).
* AI=alpine ice (compacted snow or glacial ice, often has tiny air pockets).
* NEI=North East Ice, a local WI system used in the Northeast/New England. Similar to the WI system.
(There are many other ratings systems around the world: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(climbing) for one listing. They also don't all rate the same aspect of climbs. Additional reference: "An Ice Climber's Guide to Northern New England", by Rick Wilcox, 1982.)

Rocks tend to be relatively stable and a rating can apply over an extended period of time. In contrast, ice can change hourly (or less) and the ratings (which give the rating when the route is in good condition) may be vastly different from what one actually encounters at any specific time.

"WI2 - low-angled (60 degree consistent ice), with good technique can be easily climbed with one ice axe. Grades beyond this generally require the use of two ice tools."

Great Gully is WI2 http://mountainproject.com/v/great-gully/106024017

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Great Gully (in its normal winter condition) is a snow climb--I don't think I would rate it with any of the above systems.

Doug

Ed'n Lauky said:

I'm in the same boat. Like a lot of people I tend to use the terms interchangeably. Technically speaking there's no question I'm a hiker not a climber. However, I "climb" the stairs and I will say to someone, "I climbed Mt. Washington last week". On the other hand I always say "I'm going hiking" I never say "I'm going climbing."

Usage has a lot to do with it and I guess since I'm not a "climber" I'm not really defensive about the use of the term. But technically speaking I am in full agreement with the definitions given above.

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Context is important:
1) If hiker A tells hiker B that he hiked or climbed X, the meaning of the two statements would most likely be the same.
2) If (technical) climber A tells (technical) climber B that he hiked or climbed X, the meaning of the two statements would be very different.

In general, the distinction between climbing and hiking is far more important to (technical) climbers than it is to non-climbers.

Doug

marty said:

So will I now have to "hike the stairs" in my home, rather than climbing them?

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Yes, unless you have to use your hands or require a belay...

Doug

peakbagger said:

Does anyone else have an internal definition of the line between a "hiker" and a "climber" .

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The hiker asks: "What is the easiest way to the top?"

The climber asks: "What is the hardest way to the top?"

RoySwkr said:

So all the people with sneakers and T-shirts standing on the rim of Grand Canyon are climbers, just because every year a few are killed in falls?

I agree that some free climbers use virtually no equipment so that isn't a perfect determinant either.

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I was specifically thinking about mountains such as Rainier and Denali when I made my post. Both can be climbed via non-technical routes but aren't thought of as hikes by any route. And, of course, there are free climbers which is why I qualified my last statement with "for me."

We could bandy it back and forth all day but I still say exposure is the #1 difference between hiking and climbing. Your Grand Canyon example is interesting but you really have to go out of your way to fall off a wide trail so that's not exposed in the true sense of the word.

Try adding another perspective to this debate. The audience is your life insurance company. If in the event of your unfortunate demise you are carrying an ice axe because it was deemed necessary above treeline by those who weild godly powers, now your insurance could be disputed because of vague definitions of hiking, climbing and mountaineering! I don't plan to die out there but some of these companies figure you are some sort of mountaineer if you overnight in the whites in the winter. False statements on a policy can make them null and void regardless of whether they affect the outcome. I don't do vertical ice or rock so I do not consider myself a "climber" but there are plenty of times I have ropes and an ice axe on board or even in use! For example: solo across Wildcat A slide on very unconsolidated snow. Slip line to a tree on the near side so the most I would have gone down when I was close to the far side was forty feet.