New grist for the SAR debate from Brown University study

Red Oak · May 29, 2013

There also does seem to be a type of "in the right winter hiker" out there who loves to tell others how to hike,what to carry and when in the day to hike.In the end to each their own.5 years ago,I would have been on the side of the dude who carries a alice pack which weighs 60 thousand pounds,but now I will carry a 14-16 pound pack in winter with confidence.
Is a bad event just not a question of randomness really?In 1975[I was little],on a family summer bushwack in and around the wild river my dad had a 80 to 100 pound pack for 3 days of camping and wanted to show my sis and I how to cross a river.The pack was too big and he fell in when he lost balance.The point here,maybe he had too much junk?
I think of a recent story when some yahoo told Chris Dailey's hiking buddy she was not ready to hike because of a lack of equipment.I guess one's physical condition is not a factor to some?People who tell others what to wear in the woods need to get a life,there is only so much you can really impart to others in the end,free choice trumps right or wrong.
I would rather be out before dark then prove how "prepared I am".Also in another post Tim discusses shelter spots for emergency.This is very important to know along with exit routes off certain mountains[wash and the ammo for example].Have we not covered all this here before?AAAHHHH

dave.m · May 29, 2013

sardog1 said:
I will agree that map skills are essential and often lacking. But a compass can help people recognize something as simple as the fact they're making a wrong turn at a trail junction. These are often the same folks who subsequently try to find their way back by continuing to move on the trails or, worse, bushwhacking. I've been on a number of searches where the ability to pick the right direction at the outset would have enabled me to stay home and sleep until dawn's early light instead.

You've been there. I've not. So I accept what you're saying on face value.

Still, I find this to be stunning. Again, the former cynical math teacher in me is thinking that if you're talking about the plow ahead at all cost type of person that I am, I remain skeptical that a compass added to their already existing map would really help. My sense in working with people on things like church sponsored hikes is that John Q Public is so bad at reading a map that they can't even reliably find the trail intersection on the map when standing at a well marked trail intersection. While trivial to you and I, I'm not at all convinced that something as dead obvious that if we walk due west we'll hit highway such and such is clear to people with such skills.

When I dream of solving this problem, my thinking generally winds around to a Yellowstone Park style trail permitting process that requires that hikers pass an instructional test before being allowed to hike.

But honestly, I know longer worry about solving the problem. I teach my kids and that's about it. If people want to be stupid and walk to their death in the woods, I'm not sure we can fix the problem.

Kevin Rooney · May 29, 2013

MadRiver said:
...You might want to ask mountain 49 (Julie) who was fined $7,000 for not having a compass, among other issues.

FWIW - I downloaded a compass app from my 'Droid the other day. Runs off the GPS signal so doesn't need a cell signal. I compared it my GPS - dead-on. Pretty impressive.

If you have a smartphone - and increasing numbers of us do - then having an app on your cell phone would be a quick fix to that "problem" with F&G/AG's office.

In my experience most people carrying a compass have no idea how to actually use it ...

dave.m · May 29, 2013

Kevin Rooney said:
In my experience most people carrying a compass have no idea how to actually use it ...

IME, this applies equally well to maps, lighters (as it relates to fire making), knives, first aid kits or a whistle (in an emergency situation).

Quietman · May 29, 2013

dave.m said:
Even the lightest of them like a Victorinox Classic or Leatherman Micra will handle far tougher cutting jobs than a razor blade. But, to each their own in the game of ounces.

I prefer the Victorinox Huntsman. Not ultra light but the wood saw and scissors are very useful. I've cut through a 2x4 with the saw.

TJsName · May 29, 2013

Kevin Rooney said:
FWIW - I downloaded a compass app from my 'Droid the other day. Runs off the GPS signal so doesn't need a cell signal. I compared it my GPS - dead-on. Pretty impressive.

If you have a smartphone - and increasing numbers of us do - then having an app on your cell phone would be a quick fix to that "problem" with F&G/AG's office.

Does it use a satellite signal, or does it use land based towers to coordinate the GPS location? I was under the impression it was the latter, which would require some type of signal. I'd be curious if anyone has more details on this though.

I know this winter (early Feb) a buddy and I missed the sharp left turn going down the unbroken Skookumchuck trail in the dark. We ended up using an GPS-based map app on his phone once we figured out we were off trail, corrected course, and got back on the correct side of Big Bickford. It's not as though that was a life saver since we could have stayed the night (or walked out to Rt 3!), but it was a big help (much easier than using a compass and a map). Of course, if people are going to rely on their phones, then they need to ensure they are hiking in an area with service and they they take responsible battery saving precautions (e.g. airplane mode, dim the screen, etc.).

Kevin Rooney · May 29, 2013

TJsName said:
Does it use a satellite signal, or does it use land based towers to coordinate the GPS location? I was under the impression it was the latter, which would require some type of signal. I'd be curious if anyone has more details on this though.

My smartphone uses satellite signals, but I'm not in a position to say that all smartphones do.

Lately I've been using the smartphone Google Maps app for navigating in my truck, and have a friend with an iPhone who uses the Apple version in his car. Works great, even in areas with cell reception.

DougPaul · May 29, 2013

sardog1 said:
I will agree that map skills are essential and often lacking. But a compass can help people recognize something as simple as the fact they're making a wrong turn at a trail junction. These are often the same folks who subsequently try to find their way back by continuing to move on the trails or, worse, bushwhacking. I've been on a number of searches where the ability to pick the right direction at the outset would have enabled me to stay home and sleep until dawn's early light instead.

MadRiver said:
"Compass? In NH? For trail hikers? I use a compass regularly for hunting and off-trail backcountry skiing. It's a great skill to have and am glad I'm fairly competent with one. Still. I wonder how many NH rescues have been due to a lack of a compass?"

Once when working on the MA AT, a hiker passed us heading N, passed us heading S a few minutes later, and finally passed us heading N after a few more minutes. He asked us which way was N on his third pass... (Yes, the trail goes generally N-S in this region.)

Some people are good at keeping track of direction, some aren't...

Doug

Raven · May 29, 2013

sardog1 said:
Here ya go, kids. Have at it:

"In a new study based on surveys of hikers in New Hampshire's White Mountain National Forest, Brown University researchers find that many people hit the trails without essential equipment, often because they don't think it's needed for short hikes. Young, inexperienced hikers were most likely to lack essential gear."

White Mountains hikers often underprepared

I agree that a list of equipment does not constitute preparedness. That said I nearly always have the 10 essentials anyway. Tell me though, who has died of starvation in the Whites lately (realizing food also provides warmth, energy, etc.)? Extra food? The 10 are not equal.

Most interesting here to me though is that this group is apparently going to get a paper published based on a study with n=199. I didn't know you could do that. How significant can the data be? Not to mention the arbitrary nature of assigning any 8 items as being "prepared."

I would not want to be out far in the Whites without these two: headlamp and rain gear? But apparently I would be prepared with the other eight? On Madison in October?

Tim Seaver · May 29, 2013

Raven said:
Tell me though, who has died of starvation in the Whites lately (realizing food also provides warmth, energy, etc.)?

Wasn't there a dude who died due to lack of Large Bowie Knife? He was unable to stab the wildlife passing by or fashion a quick snare, and perished from starvation, If I recall correctly.

Poor chap.

DougPaul · May 30, 2013

Raven said:
Most interesting here to me though is that this group is apparently going to get a paper published based on a study with n=199. I didn't know you could do that. How significant can the data be? Not to mention the arbitrary nature of assigning any 8 items as being "prepared."

The study was conducted at 3 trailheads--I expect that the choice of trailheads would significantly bias the result. For instance, Bridle Path/Falling Waters vs. Israel Ridge... Time of year and the day's weather would likely also bias the result.

Tell me what conclusion you want, and I can probably get data to support it by choosing the time and place...

Doug

Raven · May 30, 2013

DougPaul said:
Tell me what conclusion you want, and I can probably get data to support it by choosing the time and place...

Doug

Couldn't agree more; thus the adage about there being three types of lies:

1. Lies
2. Damn Lies
3. Statistics

Drawing conclusions from studies this small is probably more dangerous than not carrying a compass.

Jaytrek57 · May 30, 2013

dave.m said:
When I dream of solving this problem, my thinking generally winds around to a Yellowstone Park style trail permitting process that requires that hikers pass an instructional test before being allowed to hike.
QUOTE]

Wait. What?

I remember having to watch a bear video (Which most NP make you watch) and they make sure back country sites are reserved. Other than that the ranger didn't care to much.

A test to hike?

Great. Know you can add a #2 pencil to list of essentials.

Peace.

Kevin Rooney · May 30, 2013

dave.m said:
...When I dream of solving this problem, my thinking generally winds around to a Yellowstone Park style trail permitting process that requires that hikers pass an instructional test before being allowed to hike.

Did this actually happen to you, and if so, when? I've not hiked in Yellowstone (just done the touristy gawking at geysers and mud pots) but I have done hikes in Grand Teton NP, immediately to the south of Yellowstone. While they (rangers) try to discourage you from hiking, I've always gotten the necessary permits without taking quizzes, watching videos, etc.

Billy · May 30, 2013

dave.m said:
...When I dream of solving this problem, my thinking generally winds around to a Yellowstone Park style trail permitting process that requires that hikers pass an instructional test before being allowed to hike...

Jaytrek57 is correct about Yellowstone. There is no such test before being allowed to hike (unless this is some brand new policy they just rolled out). Before giving you a backcountry permit (for backpacking, NOT dayhiking) they do make you watch the bear safety video. The rangers were super cool and friendly and helpful. But as far the 10 essentials, there were THREE essentials they cared about....30+ feet of rope, keep a clean camp, and make a lot of noise.

Tim Seaver · May 30, 2013

That's Not a Knife...

No discussion of the Proper Knife Size is complete without checking in with the experts:

Tom_Murphy · May 30, 2013

Let's assume you break an ankle and need a carry out. Do you want to avoid having NHF&G fine you up to $10k?

You should start with this link and this one as well.

You need to attempt to avoid being judged as "Recklessly or intentionally creates a situation requiring an emergency response".

In New Hampshire, if you or anyone in your hiking group acts recklessly -- or fails to practice proper preparation as outlined by the hiker responsibility code -- resulting in Search and Rescue, you could be liable to pay the costs of your search and rescue mission.

My understanding of this
- you need to have the ten essentials as defined by Hike Safe,
- you need to be able to demonstrate some knowledge of the trail, weather, and gear,
- you need to have left your hiking plans with someone,
- if you are with a group, you need to stay together
- you need to show that you turned around when the weather conditions or your physical condition required it
- you need to have attempted to self-rescue

So still a very, very subjective judgment but you can remove some of the easier excuses they can use.

Did the ice climbers making their documentary get fined when they needed help? Never bothered to find out but probably not given who was in the group, but they could have been judged as reckless and been fined given the that day's avy report.

dave.m · May 30, 2013

Billy said:
Jaytrek57 is correct about Yellowstone. There is no such test before being allowed to hike (unless this is some brand new policy they just rolled out). Before giving you a backcountry permit (for backpacking, NOT dayhiking) they do make you watch the bear safety video. The rangers were super cool and friendly and helpful. But as far the 10 essentials, there were THREE essentials they cared about....30+ feet of rope, keep a clean camp, and make a lot of noise.

Right. I should have been more clear on this. The point I'm raising here is that, as the rangers in Yellowstone explained to me, the primary goal of the "permitting" process was to provide a venue in which basic educational material could be provided. If the point is to minimize bad backcountry events, this sort of "up front" intervention makes some sense to me. I also find it onerous and insulting, which is why I prefer winter hiking in the Whites than, say, Baxter State Park which (in the past) required itineraries and resumes of the party members as a part of their permitting process.

DougPaul said:
Once when working on the MA AT, a hiker passed us heading N, passed us heading S a few minutes later, and finally passed us heading N after a few more minutes. He asked us which way was N on his third pass... (Yes, the trail goes generally N-S in this region.)

Heh. I concede the point! Unless, of course, we're talking about Tates compasses. Nobody should be allowed to carry a Tates in the woods, imo. [1]

BTW, great to see your sig again, Doug.

Tim Seaver said:
No discussion of the Proper Knife Size is complete without checking in with the experts:

Instead of talking about gear, I would like to turn the knife & fire starter question towards a consideration of scenarios.

Do folks here consider the ability to make a fire to be a "required" safety skill for New England hiking and backpacking?

If so, under what conditions? And do you feel confident that you carry tools that would allow you to start and sustain a fire?

If not, why not?

[1] - Wait for it...

Tim Seaver · May 30, 2013

Compliance Is Lacking

Tom_Murphy said:
- you need to show that you turned around when the weather conditions or your physical condition required it

If that was the case most honest people would turn around at the trailhead. The signs are quite clear:

How many people do you see in the mountains that are in "Top Physical Condition" vs. something a bit less?

Why are people not complying with the sign's clear language? I mean, they even underlined ONLY.

Jaytrek57 · May 30, 2013

dave.m said:
Right. I should have been more clear on this. The point I'm raising here is that, as the rangers in Yellowstone explained to me, the primary goal of the "permitting" process was to provide a venue in which basic educational material could be provided. If the point is to minimize bad backcountry events, this sort of "up front" intervention makes some sense to me. I also find it onerous and insulting, which is why I prefer winter hiking in the Whites than, say, Baxter State Park which (in the past) required itineraries and resumes of the party members as a part of their permitting process.

Perhaps.

I believe the primary goal is usage as oppose to education.

peace.

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New grist for the SAR debate from Brown University study

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