Fire Etiquette

Are fires allowed at backcountry campsites in the winter such as liberty springs or is that generally frowned upon? Hoping to do 1-2 nights this weekend and trying to decide on a good route. Obviously, a fire would be a welcome addition, but I don't want to be "that guy".

Thanks

If you are headed to Liberty Springs (which has no group fireplace) keep going a bit further (about 0.3 mile) to the ridge and camp up there. This is where "overflow" campers are sent in the summer. From the WMNF regs it looks like you simply have to cross the ridge trail and go 200 ft to be legally camped with a fire. The woods there are reasonably flat and open, making for good campsites.
-vegematic

While it's always good to practice LNT when you're camping,sometimes a small fire on a winter night is a big difference. You can carry a small thin metal "fire pan" for doing a fire on the snow,and then scatter the ashes when it's done. Unfortunately,you don't get many really calm nights in winter to build a fire you can enjoy.

Thanks Veg, we'll probably check out the overflow area. Hope to see some of you guys out there this weekend....

Fire vs. Sleeping Bag/Tent

Normally I've always felt that getting into my sleeping bag up to my belly or so, wear my parka, along with some warm food and tea does the trick a lot better than a fire anyway. In winter a fire is often difficult to light due to wet or frozen wood. If you camp in any established areas you will have a hard time finding wood and you should not cut down trees in order to light backcountry fires.

Camping w/o fire is not the end of the world.

For a few days I debated whether I should respond or not, but finally, I decided to go ahead and bite the bullet. I practice LNT, and I believe that LNT also means discussing such topics when not in the woods.

The best fire, is no fire at all.

I feel that fires are sentimental-feel-good-warm-fuzzy things that are no longer needed in the backcountry, unless under very special circumstances (emergencies).

Fire rings litter the woods; not only do popular tenting spots usually have more than one, but I've stumbled into my fair share of old rings while bushwacking. They often are magnets for trash, usually the non-burnable variety. Having fires helps create to human browse lines, as people forage on the trees for wood to burn.

The site of an established fire ring calls for another fire. Future fires will collect more trash, and will also contribute to larger and larger human browse lines, especially around popular spots. How many tenting sites and B.C. sites have browse lines that extend for hundreds of yards, the trees devoid of all branches up to the reach of a human?

Sure, we can do things that minimize the impact of fires, like maintaining only one firepit per campsite (for those that insist), and using wood already fallen off the trees, amongst many others. But we can do a lot more!

Finally, and most importantly: Having a fire only encourages and habituates others--whether it be your friends, your children, or others camping around you-- to have a fire in the future. Fire will beget fire.

In the end, the best way to minimize a fire, is to say, "No, Thank you," and explain your position. You will leave an impression, and challenge others to think about their impact in the woods.

Lnt...

The fallen wood serves an important purpose in the woods. Even though it's less harmful than yanking off branches from trees it still does have a negative affect on the forest in those areas.

Leave no harangues

"You will leave an impression, and challenge others to think about their impact in the woods."

I hope this doesn't mean that if you see someone acting in complete accordance with WMNF regulations, that you would feel free to harangue them with your "feelings."

jjmcgo said:

"You will leave an impression, and challenge others to think about their impact in the woods."

I hope this doesn't mean that if you see someone acting in complete accordance with WMNF regulations, that you would feel free to harangue them with your "feelings."

Click to expand...

Hmm... that seems to be mildly bitter tone. I'll clarify:

I would not, nor do I, "harangue" others whom act within the regs, even if I personally would choose to do something another way. To each his own.

Throwing my two cents in, I've never received much warmth from making a fire in the winter, anyway, other than trudging through the snow to collect the wood. And getting sweaty from that effort doesn't help my long-term warmth. It's also disappointing to see all that work sink five feet down into the snow.

In my opinion it's best to change into dry clothes, cook a hot meal on the stove, then watch the stars, or retire to the tent to read or play a game with tentmates.

Orphic Seth said:

For a few days I debated whether I should respond or not, but finally, I decided to go ahead and bite the bullet. I practice LNT, and I believe that LNT also means discussing such topics when not in the woods.

Click to expand...

Funny, that's how I felt, for the opposite reason

I feel that fires are sentimental-feel-good-warm-fuzzy things that are no longer needed in the backcountry, unless under very special circumstances (emergencies).

Click to expand...

The same could be said of lean-tos, or trails

Winter camping away from established sites with a fire is about as LNT as you can get. A rule of thumb is that an acre produces a cord of wood a year, and even allowing for less growth at high elevations there is far more fuel produced in the NF than will ever be used. If you camp on snow you don't disturb the ground surface, and if you scatter the ashes of your fire (which is safe in winter) you are in effect mimicking natural decomposition. "Browsing" at established campsites and leaving messy fire rings is not a necessary part of fires, any more than littering is a necessary part of bringing packaged food. That hasn't stopped some areas from banning bottles & cans just as other areas ban fires.

I will not try to defend fires in summer. I have found that bringing food that doesn't require cooking and drinking water at ambient temperature is much easier all around. I haven't been winter camping since adopting this policy.

You will note that I haven't yet mentioned backpacking stoves but in case there are any LNT-ers who aren't mad yet, I will. One of my concerns with LNT as currently practiced is that it defines backcountry as a pristine area to be preserved but cares little about the rest of the earth. Someone who buys a stove and uses it only a couple times a year is probably being harder on the environment than if they built fires. Manufacturing a stove requires minerals (large open pit mines), foundries (large energy use), and maybe disposable cartridges (miniature hazardous waste items that will probably be banned eventually). And while the amount of fuel used in a stove is miniscule compared to that in the vehicle that got you there, in effect by using fossil fuel when you could use a renewable resource such as wood you are voting in favor of wars in the Mideast, drilling offshore and in the Arctic, etc.

Yes, I'm preaching too. Why not leave the base noter to his fun?

Well, a buddy and I went to Liberty Springs for 2 nights which was fantastic. We were plenty warm without having a fire. It didnt seem like it would've been worth the effort, as we had enough to do melting snow and eating. We hiked over to Haystack and Lincoln on Sunday and that kept us warm well into the evening, since the trail between liberty and haystack had only 1 set of footprints and the drifts were indeed deep. FWIW, I highly recomend the down booties from EMS. We each had those and my feet have never been so warm in camp, plus they were waterproof, as we walked all over the site with them and stayed nice and dry/warm.

Since I heat my home with wood (totally oil free!) and have four fireplaces I built myself, the open fire is associated with staying home (like the couch and a TV). When I was a kid we always built a little camp fire. But now I find it liberating to not build a fire. No collecting tinder, firewood (always damp), no smokey clothes and tent. With the advent of tiny reliable stoves, poly... clothes that aren't soaked and need fire drying, it seems so relaxing to just shut off the stove and listen to the slience or the wind (or imagined creeping creatures). But seeing an occasional fire ring in a well worn backcountry camp doesn't make me freak out either. Fire is like liquor, in moderation it ain't so bad.
My own slant on the issue.

Speaing as a winter only camper in the Whites, I have to say that a small fire can be very enjoyable sometimes. I think it goes back to a primal instinct . It's just a comfort. We practice LNT when camping,and we're very careful about how we have a fire. I just don't see it being that big an issue in winter,as there are relatively few winter campers. We don't cook on a fire,as that would require a bigger fire,and it's not very efficient.
That being said,most times we don't have a fire because the situation doesn't warrant it.Or we're just too tired after hiking in!
I just bought a Brunton Liberty lantern recently,partly because it somewhat mimics the glow of a campfire-without foraging for wood!
In the summer,we camp on the Maine Island Trail(kayak camping). Fires are just not a safe possibility there,and in promoting MITA,we stress the importance of no fires on the islands,or at least only below tideline,as a fire on an island would be devastating.
As with everything in life,it comes down to common sense.

You make an interesting point here, but I wonder if it is truely warranted. The fact is that the woods are areas we are trying to preserve, as apposed to the land surrounding foundries, or the oil being consumed. If you use a stove for many years (I have some stoves over 5 years old now) and be as efficient as possible with your fuel use (especially with canisters) I dont see how you can possibly use more fuel than that required to make a fire.

My second point is: what about alcohol stoves? These run on a renewable energy source (grain) and are often built using aluminum cans that would otherwise end up in the dumpster, or back in the recycling cycle, requiring more energy to re-make, than would be required for a craftsman to create a stove.

-percious

RoySwkr said:

You will note that I haven't yet mentioned backpacking stoves but in case there are any LNT-ers who aren't mad yet, I will. One of my concerns with LNT as currently practiced is that it defines backcountry as a pristine area to be preserved but cares little about the rest of the earth. Someone who buys a stove and uses it only a couple times a year is probably being harder on the environment than if they built fires. Manufacturing a stove requires minerals (large open pit mines), foundries (large energy use), and maybe disposable cartridges (miniature hazardous waste items that will probably be banned eventually). And while the amount of fuel used in a stove is miniscule compared to that in the vehicle that got you there, in effect by using fossil fuel when you could use a renewable resource such as wood you are voting in favor of wars in the Mideast, drilling offshore and in the Arctic, etc.

Click to expand...

percious said:

You make an interesting point here, but I wonder if it is truely warranted. The fact is that the woods are areas we are trying to preserve, as apposed to the land surrounding foundries, or the oil being consumed. If you use a stove for many years (I have some stoves over 5 years old now) and be as efficient as possible with your fuel use (especially with canisters) I dont see how you can possibly use more fuel than that required to make a fire.

Click to expand...

I have 2 stoves over 30yrs old (still working). The environmental impact of manufacturing the stove is the same whether you use it or not. The issue here is not just how much energy is consumed, but where, what form, and how much impact. Open wood fires are rather inefficient sources of cooking heat--a big issue in the third world where wood may be the only practical fuel. Wood stoves are better.

One could also argue that recreational (non-cooking or non-space-heating) fires are a complete waste of energy and fuel.

percious said:

My second point is: what about alcohol stoves? These run on a renewable energy source (grain) and are often built using aluminum cans that would otherwise end up in the dumpster, or back in the recycling cycle, requiring more energy to re-make, than would be required for a craftsman to create a stove.

Click to expand...

And the impact of growing this grain, converting it into alcohol, packaging it, and shipping it to the store where you bought it? (Lots of modified land, pesticides, fossil fuels, and diesel engines here...) One can only determine the impact difference by comparing the total costs of the two alternatives. (Eg hydrogen fueled vehicles are not pollution free--they just move the pollution to the hydrogen generation process and its energy source.)

Manufacturing energy is saved only if the homemade alcohol stove saves someone from manufacturing a different stove (even if it just sits on the shelf). Energy is stored in the aluminum until you recycle it. (Aluminum smelting is very energy intensive.)

Just trying to make the point that when comparing cost-value ratio of altnatives, one must use the entire system costs, not just some local ones.

Doug
(Who hasn't built a wood fire in many years.)

Firewood

For what its worth, I was at the Terrace Mtn Leanto in the Cats two weeks ago, and my friends and I were very fortunate to have found a HUGE blowdown, elevated off the ground (leaning on another tree.) Our weekend was cut short due to the blizzard that rolled in Saturday afternoon.

There is a small firepit at the Terrace Mtn Leanto, and we had to leave a large stack of split firewood, there is also a duraflame log inside the leanto. We needed to get out of their in a hurry as we were already being buried by the snow!

So if someone feels like hanging out at the Terrace Mtn Leanto, there is a lot of split firewood (that is VERY VERY dry) for a really nice fire.

We had a fire blazing our first night, it did provide us with quite a bit of warmth while sitting on the bench in front of the fire pit. One side affect, all our gear, clothing, bags, etc reeked like smoke! Shifting winds, doh!