On helping unprepared hikers, group hikes, and hike leadership

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hikerbrian said:
Makes sense to me, billski. There's a substantial energy barrier to leading for the AMC, no doubt. In addition to the training, one needs to keep up their WFA certification, and posting trips does take a little bit of effort. The upside, as you suggest, is that there is some quality control.

In addition to trips, the AMC also offers a pretty good variety of workshops where specific skills are taught: map and compass, above treeline travel, winter backpacking, etc. These workshops are laughably cheap, but there is a time commitment, often a whole weekend (larger commitment for the leaders). Many folks I suspect are surprised to realize that it actually takes time and energy to acquire new skills; it takes more than downloading a podcast and tuning in during the commute to get proficient with ice axe self arrest. I don't see a way around this. Personally, I've learned some pretty valuable skills in a few of these workshops, skills that have allowed me to take trips in many parts of the world that I would not have had the skills to take otherwise. My level of enjoyment and confidence in the woods has been similarly influenced. These workshops have been my impetus for "giving back."

Regarding advanced notice, as a leader, I can post any trip I want anytime I want. If I want it to get posted in AMC Outdoors, it's true I'd need to do that well in advance, but I personally have never once done that. I can also tell you that I've posted "peak bagging" trips, and I've posted "hardcore" trips, and I've posted "chill out vacation" trips. That last one is the only type that is consistently under-subscribed. So it's not just that no one leads those trips, it's also that fewer people want to participate. YMMV with meetup.

I don't want to come off as a mouthpiece for the AMC, it has its flaws. I think there is reason and need for a variety of organizations that get people into the woods safely. But I'm surprised the AMC trips and workshops don't get brought up more often in these threads, as it's a pretty good model for volunteers doing what they can to maintain quality leadership and bring competence and enjoyment to others who share a desire to be in the woods.
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I know billski kind of hit on these points but wanted to add a different perspective. I run one of the larger and more active hiking Meetup groups in New England, am an AMC 4 Season Leader with the Boston Chapter, and recently became the program manager for the AMC's Mountain Leadership School. I couldn't agree with you more when you say that we need a variety of organizations to help get people get out into the woods.

One of the problems though is that some in the AMC slam Meetup as being a bunch of unprepared yahoos while some in Meetup slam the AMC for being too bureaucratic and uptight. Both are right and both are wrong. Its not the organization per se but rather the people in those organizations that run the activities. Same goes for groups like VFFT and the hiking groups on Facebook. There are people that should lead trips and help teach new leaders and hikers and there are some that shouldn't.

While I can't speak for how the AMC programs and workshops get marketed here on VFFT, I know that I actively promote them with my Meetup group (Random Group of Hikers). There are usually 20 - 30 people from my group that attend the Introduction to Spring Hiking & Backing and about the same number attend the Introduction to Winter Hiking & Backpacking. About two dozen of the organizers in my group have been through the Boston or New Hampshire Chapter Outdoor Leadership Program - in fact many of them actively lead with both the AMC and the Random Hikers.

I know you weren't suggesting one is better than the other (and I don't think one is, they each have pros and cons) but I would like to see more of a partnership between the many different factions that are out there. There are only so many people who want to get out and hike and instead of fighting to get them into one organization or another I think it is important to just get them out there so they can have a safe and enjoyable experience, one that they want to repeat.
 
bikehikeskifish said:
The ADK High Peaks have this kind of forum. What happens, in reality, is that the same people answer the questions as in the other forums. Instead, we should all request that newbie questions are treated more gently. The moderators do this from time to time with limited success. Answers with "use the search function" are, IMO, intimidating. Many times and many other places (FB, other forums, in person) I've heard this same opinion of VFTT... it's too hardcore and people are too opinionated.

FB is one-stop shopping, and is more conducive to the snippet / snapshot / Instagram mentality that pervades the internet in 2013.

See all of the above comments ;) FB has a very active pair of NH 4K hiking groups that are full of beginner questions and photo trip reports.

Tim
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thread drift mr.moderator? I'll play a long! nice new avatar pic, best for last, eh?! I subscribed to a fb hiking forum, but have never commented/contributed. For me i prefer to come on here for my internet hiking and use fb for friends and family tracking.. also I'm kind of anti fb, they're the wal-mart of social media and I don't dig that they censor. I need to link my viddys thru vimeo on there, because I got banned for posting some personal snowboarding edits, without stating the music in my credits... not only was I shocked to get banned but shocked that my viddys were even viewed..

oh yeah, unprepared hikers? weren't we all at one point, some get lucky and some don't.
 
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bikehikeskifish said:
What happens, in reality, is that the same people answer the questions as in the other forums. Instead, we should all request that newbie questions are treated more gently. The moderators do this from time to time with limited success. Answers with "use the search function" are, IMO, intimidating. Many times and many other places (FB, other forums, in person) I've heard this same opinion of VFTT... it's too hardcore and people are too opinionated.
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Can I reply with a hearty AMEN? I have experienced this myself when I asked a question, and I got criticized for missing a previous answer when I had used search. I really appreciate the collective knowledge of the frequent posters, and I check the board regularly for the knowledge I gain. Still, when I have a question, have failed at finding an answer, it would be nice to not be told I'm a dope for missing something someone posted in 2009.
 
billski said:
+1
Like the WFR First Responder I met who had no first aid gear while we were helping a woman with a sprained foot?
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Probably since one of the most popular WFA training venues bases care response not from a well-stocked kit- but instead with a trekking pole, plastic coffee cup, foam pad, and some shoe lace pieces.

(Merely intended as early morning FR humor).
 
As a frequent hiker, yesterday (a Saturday) I decided to do Washington via Tuckerman's Ravine as the cascades on the headwall are magnificent. Usually I do the Ammo/Jewell loop, in part because it can include Monroe, is overall more scenic and is closer but it had been awhile since I'd come down Lions Head and wanted to see how the old AV path had revegetated. I got to PNVC at a reasonable hour, and was amazed to find no parking spots on either side of the lodge, so parked in an overflow lot just south, towards Glen Ellis. It turned out to be a short walk back to PNVC area. And of course, it was the usual assortment of a few hardcore types but mostly those in sneaks, cotton sweatshirts, blah, blah, blah. But, somehow most of them got up - and down - the hill without being rescued, although I suspect a few paid for a trip on the van. The same was true last weekend on a Falling Waters/OBP loop with an old friend. Lately the only time I get really concerned about less-experienced hikers is from about mid-October thru November.

A couple of comments on the AMC vs. Meetup issue - the Boston Chapter isn't the only Chapter attempting to grapple with its role vs. Meetup, and how to possibly integrate the two. And to muddy the waters - just as with Meetup groups, there's often a variation between Chapters as to the competence and leadership skills of its hike leaders. So, if you're a newbie out there - whether you sign up for an AMC hike or a Meetup - it's your responsibility to check out the skill level of the leader(s). Don't be afraid to ask questions of the leaders/organizers.
 
Kevin Rooney said:
Lately the only time I get really concerned about less-experienced hikers is from about mid-October thru November.
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I couldn't agree more based on my experience. It seems the dead of winter keeps most less experienced people away, so in January and February, it's not as much of an issue...but the lure of the mountains in fall with conditions conducive to hypothermia seem to be the true pitfall for hikers. Glorious fall weather south of the mountains and lower in elevation during the days can be very deceiving when the nights in the mountains are dropping below freezing.

I would also remind people in Meetups, AMC, or any other group to not rely on the leader for your personal safety. That's generally your responsibility. I have had personal experiences where the leader did not know how to lead a group safely (in one case) or where the leaders both had physical issues on the hike itself (physical exhaustion for one/cramping and initial hypothermia for the other) that required the group to take charge. Point being - at least in the second case, these were good leaders with a lot of winter experience. It can happen to anyone in the right circumstances. Be prepared for that possibility.
 
Good discussion here, really good. I have no experience with meetup, so I appreciate those who have added that perspective, and I continue to think that having a variety of outdoors-oriented organizations is a good thing. I think the various learning programs offered by the AMC are a unique and valuable niche, while the freedom to post a trip the night before (meetup) and not worry too much about who shows up is pretty cool as well.

I have seen some, well, imperfect leadership within the AMC. My response has been to get right in there and do what I can to improve the quality of the organization. As I've mentioned, the AMC has given me a lot - or rather certain individuals within the AMC have given me a lot. In spite of the various commitments and requirements, I've also gotten a lot out of leading for the AMC and will continue to do so. Though this thread has given me some motivation to look into meetup - heck, sometimes I don't want to do a lot of extra planning, and I also don't want to go solo. Cool option.
 
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Hey Tim,
Please split it - I'm sure there are others who would want to engage, but aren't interested in reading about another lost hiker [been misled by the title!]

bikehikeskifish said:
Yeah, we drifted. I could split the thread if y'all want. I actually thought about it while posting above.

Tim
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Casual Hiker said:
Can I reply with a hearty AMEN? I have experienced this myself when I asked a question, and I got criticized for missing a previous answer when I had used search. I really appreciate the collective knowledge of the frequent posters, and I check the board regularly for the knowledge I gain. Still, when I have a question, have failed at finding an answer, it would be nice to not be told I'm a dope for missing something someone posted in 2009.
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This is "Internet Social Skills Deficit" syndrome. Problem is that each voice appears as loud as the next. I say to myself, "hey, it's just one person having a bad day." They don't represent the group at large. Problem is, they can readily dominate a group. Seen this happen a lot in ski discussions. I'm usually quick to dope-slap a comment like that and tell the writer to pay no attention to the idiot behind the avatar.
 
billski said:
This is "Internet Social Skills Deficit" syndrome. Problem is that each voice appears as loud as the next. I say to myself, "hey, it's just one person having a bad day." They don't represent the group at large. Problem is, they can readily dominate a group. Seen this happen a lot in ski discussions. I'm usually quick to dope-slap a comment like that and tell the writer to pay no attention to the idiot behind the avatar.
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This reminds me of two comics...

#1: That's definitely part of the problem. It's compounded by the issue of poor writing style and/or lack of tone - it can be easy to interpret someone as being rude/smug when they are just firing off a quick reply in earnest. The 'equal weight' problem is significant if you don't trust the source. The ability to give a nod/like/+1/etc. to a solid post would be a nice way to give credence to a response without having to respond directly. In my years of following this forum and looking for info I've generally noticed the common sense advice is good. The areas of more impassioned debate tend to fall on issues of personal preference/comfort. To that extent, the debate will likely continue. #2
 
But it makes me want to write, "Hey, this isn't the Reader's Comments" column in the Union Leader. It's a Forum. An 4. "outlet for discussion of matters of interest to a given group." The Random House College Dictionary.
 
As one of many longtime posters here, there are some questions which come up repeatedly. To me, it's a sign that fresh blood is invigorating the board, which is healthy signal. Sometimes the posts "use the search function" are simply rude, but to people's credit - mostly others seem to jump in, ignoring the rude comment, and answer the question anyway.

To those of us who might be tempted to invoke "use the search function" (and we know who we are) a better approach would be to provide an answer to the question and then conclude with something like "this question comes up often. If you search on xxxx you'll find other points of view/solutions/whatever"/ It would be less intimidating and encourage the new user (and others) to participate more. After all, just because some of us have been using the same gear/trails/whatever for an eternity doesn't mean a better way to skin the proverbial cat hasn't been introduced.
 
Grey J said:
I'm not sure you're doing anyone (including the rest of us on the trail) any favor by taking a group of 20. Maybe your first lesson should be that groups max out at 10. Sorry, just my opinion, maybe you plan to split them up.
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Grey, We'll have to disagree. 20 never show up. I had 16 for this hike, which is a good number. They are all well-behaved and actually not noisy at all. Must be my whip.
I've hiked for years alone and been thoroughly annoyed at large, yahoo-type groups and their physical, aural and environmental impacts.

I do a lot of screening beforehand. My trips are far from race-to-the-top. We do a lot of stopping and learning along the way. I tend to attract a lot of photographers too, since my trips are slower than most. Come join me on the 22nd and see for yourself. What hikes do you lead?
 
TJsName said:
This reminds me of two comics...

#1: That's definitely part of the problem. It's compounded by the issue of poor writing style and/or lack of tone - it can be easy to interpret someone as being rude/smug when they are just firing off a quick reply in earnest. The 'equal weight' problem is significant if you don't trust the source. The ability to give a nod/like/+1/etc. to a solid post would be a nice way to give credence to a response without having to respond directly. In my years of following this forum and looking for info I've generally noticed the common sense advice is good. The areas of more impassioned debate tend to fall on issues of personal preference/comfort. To that extent, the debate will likely continue. #2
Click to expand...

+1
:)

smile!
 
Kevin Rooney said:
And of course, it was the usual assortment of a few hardcore types but mostly those in sneaks, cotton sweatshirts, blah, blah, blah. But, somehow most of them got up - and down - the hill without being rescued, although I suspect a few paid for a trip on the van. T
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This is interesting. Idiots will be idiots. Those that are either invincible or full of B(ravado) and the fools that follow will always be up on the rocks beating their chests. It's usually those who have youth and strength on their side. So quite frankly, I'm not interested in them - there is little to be done to save them.

Those who interest me are those who have a sincere interest in being outdoors, in the woods, but for whatever reason do not feel comfortable getting out for the first (or subsequent) times on their own. They want to do something more challenging and to learn. These are the ones who take a deeper interest in the journey and the experience. They are easier to keep in line, helpful, understanding, full of questions and always, always are very appreciative. That feels more like giving back to me. The more boot on the trails that are educated and aware, the better off we all are. There is a significant demand in this category. And many of these people will never get out, because there is no avenue for them.

So I'm carving out this niche, where it's still a challenging hike, but it's a bit slower and it's instructional - nothing formal, could be about the forest, equipment, styles of hiking, trails, map & compass. It does not make them fully educated, but it does plant the seed.

I want to make one final comment about sneaks, sweats etc. First, Not everyone can afford gear, or even new clothing. It may be expensive enough to pay the gas to get there. At least the hiking is free. I say, let them go out with whatever they have but jump in only when things appear to be moving into the unsafe category. Second, for some people, this could be their vacation - they may never ever be back. This could be their one and only time to get to hike on a high peak. The only thing I require of the tourist-hiker is some common sense. I don't think you need an all day course to tell you to pack warm clothes when it gets cold. We can't mandate common sense, so we just have to let Darwin's theory take its course ;)
 
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Kevin Rooney said:
As one of many longtime posters here, there are some questions which come up repeatedly. To me, it's a sign that fresh blood is invigorating the board, which is healthy signal. Sometimes the posts "use the search function" are simply rude, but to people's credit - mostly others seem to jump in, ignoring the rude comment, and answer the question anyway.

To those of us who might be tempted to invoke "use the search function" (and we know who we are) a better approach would be to provide an answer to the question and then conclude with something like "this question comes up often. If you search on xxxx you'll find other points of view/solutions/whatever"/ It would be less intimidating and encourage the new user (and others) to participate more. After all, just because some of us have been using the same gear/trails/whatever for an eternity doesn't mean a better way to skin the proverbial cat hasn't been introduced.
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I agree. If I got a response like you describe, I would learn two things; first, the answer to my question, and second, how to better find my own answer in the future. I consider myself a pretty experienced hiker now, but compared to some of the posters here I am a babe in the woods. The experience and knowledge that is available to those of us who can only head north a few times a year help to reduce the number of fools wandering the trail. Well, at least it makes us slightly more educated fools. ;-)
 
billski said:
This is interesting. Idiots will be idiots. Those that are either invincible or full of B(ravado) and the fools that follow will always be up on the rocks beating their chests. It's usually those who have youth and strength on their side. So quite frankly, I'm not interested in them - there is little to be done to save them.
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Well, with all due respect - I don't regard them as idiots. Granted, many of them were less than optimally prepared in terms of gear & other essentials for the winds up high, and the possible showers forecast for later that afternoon. And, they seemed like a diverse group - lots of family units, groups of friends, both young and old, possible church groups (I saw two school buses unloading with adults), and at least 1/3 of them were our neighbors to the north if accents are any indication.

And a general observation on our northern neighbors - my impression of them as a group over the years is that they seem better prepared in terms of gear/clothing. Whether it's because they live in a colder climate than the average dayhiker in the Whites (they're going south to hike, compared to most US citizens going north), the extra planning that's required for anyone crossing the border which may cause them to plan better - I dunno. Probably lots of factors come into play. But, climate plays a role. Want to buy a truly warm hat, or expedition-grade mitts? You'll have a tough time finding them at REI. Why - because they're based in Billingham, Washington, and they never get the polar air masses. You're better off at MEC - they're based in Canada. It's just human nature - we dress based upon what we've experienced.
 
billski said:
Grey, We'll have to disagree. 20 never show up. I had 16 for this hike, which is a good number. They are all well-behaved and actually not noisy at all. Must be my whip.
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Now you just need to whittle the number down to 10,16 is still a mob rampage imho and not within the "rules".The members of your hike might have a better time with a smaller group.Also you should watch who you get with that whip of yours.You could be opening yourself up to litigation :D.
Seriously though nice of you to take on the meetup stuff,hopefully you can create some new nature lovers.
 
billski said:
This is interesting. Idiots will be idiots. Those that are either invincible or full of B(ravado) and the fools that follow will always be up on the rocks beating their chests. It's usually those who have youth and strength on their side. So quite frankly, I'm not interested in them - there is little to be done to save them.

Those who interest me are those who have a sincere interest in being outdoors, in the woods, QUOTE]

"Idiots" can have a sincere interest as well. I guess I have that internet deficit thingamajigee. :) I think there is a lot to admire about those who have youth and strength on their side. I know I wish I still had some of it. :)

"Idiot" is used a lot on this forum I notice. Just an observation.

Jay
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