Food When Winter Hiking

In support of Neil's "Hiking Nutrition: YMMV" and "Hiking nutrition ain't running nutrition", I offer an example from our hike yesterday. Five peaks, 22 miles, 8600' elevation gain, 13.5 hours. Trail conditions were icy and the average temperature was 14 F. I consumed:

Two Clif Builder Bars
One-quarter of a Clif Bar
Half-cup of Neil's premium gorp
Five squares (55g) of dark chocolate (with almonds and raisins)
Half-packet (50g) of Skittles
One sesame-seed cracker
Two liters of plain water

Neil ate and drank approximately the same quantities of food and water except, instead of Builder Bars, he drank his protein "witches brew".

Yeah, we were hungry afterwards and made some Stewart's chili and potato chips ("Dinner of Champions") disappear before the drive back to Montreal.

In fact, I drank 1.250 liters of pure tap water.

My witches brew protein drink was constructed upon a base of 500 mls. of bovine secretory product AKA milk.

Kevin Rooney said:

In past threads a hiker named Pete would describe his drinking olive oil - straight from the bottle - as one of his dietary mainstays while hiking. Among other things, he commuted to/from Canada for his hiking in the ADK's on his bike, so he had a high level of credibility, at least for me. While we use olive oil exclusively in cooking, I'd have a hard time chugging it on the trail. YMMV, and obviously his did.

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You reminded me of a AMC shuttle trip I took years ago after a presi traverse. The driver was a well seasoned AMC'er drinking Italian dressing out of the bottle.

DougPaul said:

As usual, this has been discussed in a previous thread:
Doug

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DougPaul - Maybe that is the best question I could ask you: What is the best way to search the forum? I try to search stuff in advance knowing your "rebuttal" is coming but I seem to find much more "noise" than info relevant to what I'm researching. I tried "winter food","food" and others and got links to threads about pine martens, shrews, moose hunts, wide mouth Nalgene bottles, Peggy O'Briens trip in March of 2006, etc, etc. Brings up A LOT of info to wade through to get the tidbits you're looking for. Sorry if I'm treading on your patience. I don't mean to be irritating but you seem to have references to threads committed to memory along with a staggeringly detailed amount of info to bring to the table on virtually every topic on this forum.

If you haven't memorized all this info and are searching the forums to find all the incredible info you post then by all means "teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime" instead of putting the fish in my plate every day. (But I do appreciate the time and information very much)

Day Trip - I totally agree with your comments above. If there is a recent thread, that is one thing. But if this comes up a year apart, I think it is worthy of a new thread with fresh thinking. Another way to handle this, I suppose, would be to just do a Google search, but I find I like the good information that generally comes from topics in VFTT.

Adding food-related conversation, I just found a new product from "Wild Friends. It is an "all natural Sesame Cranberry Peanut Butter." I had actually though of adding raisins or craisins to my peanut butter sandwiches, so bought a jar to try it out. My first sample with a spoon here at the office tells me the seeds are going to stick to my teeth, but I think i will add craisins to my peanut butter sandwiches, which I will then cut into thirds for easier eating.

DayTrip said:

DougPaul - Maybe that is the best question I could ask you: What is the best way to search the forum? I try to search stuff in advance knowing your "rebuttal" is coming but I seem to find much more "noise" than info relevant to what I'm researching. I tried "winter food","food" and others and got links to threads about pine martens, shrews, moose hunts, wide mouth Nalgene bottles, Peggy O'Briens trip in March of 2006, etc, etc. Brings up A LOT of info to wade through to get the tidbits you're looking for. Sorry if I'm treading on your patience. I don't mean to be irritating but you seem to have references to threads committed to memory along with a staggeringly detailed amount of info to bring to the table on virtually every topic on this forum.

If you haven't memorized all this info and are searching the forums to find all the incredible info you post then by all means "teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime" instead of putting the fish in my plate every day. (But I do appreciate the time and information very much)

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Dont worry about a rebuttal, just post what you want. Once a thread gets going, people can just read through it and take out things that may benefit them. Some advice is good, some isnt, some relevant to some, not others. NO big deal.

DayTrip said:

DougPaul - Maybe that is the best question I could ask you: What is the best way to search the forum? I try to search stuff in advance knowing your "rebuttal" is coming but I seem to find much more "noise" than info relevant to what I'm researching. I tried "winter food","food" and others and got links to threads about pine martens, shrews, moose hunts, wide mouth Nalgene bottles, Peggy O'Briens trip in March of 2006, etc, etc. Brings up A LOT of info to wade through to get the tidbits you're looking for. Sorry if I'm treading on your patience. I don't mean to be irritating but you seem to have references to threads committed to memory along with a staggeringly detailed amount of info to bring to the table on virtually every topic on this forum.

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Knowing a good set of search terms can be hard, particularly for someone who is new to the forum and/or new to the form of hiking (eg winter) that is the context of the question. Perhaps I am fortunate that I have a reasonably good memory of the content of threads that have interested me in the past. Sometimes one can remember some unique terms or phrases to search for. (For instance, the phrase "Morton Lite Salt" can be found in most (if not all) of the threads that refer to or describe my homebrew el-cheapo electrolyte drink.) I also have an ace in the hole--I archive all of my posts locally and Linux has a whole host of searching tools that often enable me to zero in on a short list of potentially relevant threads quickly and easily. (Of course this is limited to threads in which I have posted.)

Some general tips for searching:
* Try the advanced search--it gives you more to work with.
* Try searching on only titles first
* Search on phrases (I don't know if the internal search can do this.)
* The internal search has some serious deficiencies--for instance it does not index words of 3 or fewer characters thus ignoring acronyms such as "GPS".
* Try Google advanced search, limited to this website. It indexes short words, phrases, and includes blocking words. (Many websites use Google to perform their "internal" searches...)

If you haven't memorized all this info and are searching the forums to find all the incredible info you post then by all means "teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime" instead of putting the fish in my plate every day. (But I do appreciate the time and information very much)

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I have much of the info in memory (I have been hiking all my life and have studied and engaged in the heavier duty forms of this foolishness for 40 or so years. I have read a tremendous amount over the years including arenas which I have not experienced directly (such as Himalayan class mountaineering), and even remember some of it(!). (FWIW, I am a professional researcher (electrical engineer)--many of the same mental tools are useful here.) However, I certainly don't know or remember everything or may have a hazy memory of an aspect of an issue so I will do a bit of research to clarify and/or obtain some references. In some cases it can take quite a while to produce a good answer. (The record is probably several hours...) I'm also a slow writer...

Thank you for recognizing how much work is required to answer many of the questions.

"Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime".

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Yes, a thousand times yes!

Given how much time it takes people (not just me) to answer questions, I feel that it is a questioner's duty to make a reasonable attempt to find the answer himself before querying the forum--it is particularly obvious that someone didn't even try or didn't try very hard when he asks a question that was just answered recently. And in such a situation I feel that the suggestion to search or a link to a prior thread is appropriate. Hopefully it will nudge the questioner try to answer his own questions before asking the forum. Google (or your favorite search engine) is your friend. We all have the greatest library in the world at our keyboards...

Given the above, one has to guess the competence level of the questioner and factor that into one's response. (And, of course, there are many silent readers that one is speaking to as well.) IMO, beginners should get more help than experienced outdoorsmen.

A related issue is that a beginner often does not know what questions to ask--there are aspects of hiking (or mountaineering) that he is unlikely to think of or learn (eg safety issues) unless he takes a course (eg winter school--mine was ~18 hours over 3 weeks + weekend trips with experienced leaders) or reads a comprehensive book (or books). Such would also give a good base from which to ask questions.

I'm glad that you find my answers helpful--you're welcome.


And to bring it back on topic--an item that I think is worth mentioning: dehydration is often a factor in hypothermia and frostbite.

Doug

So, a new form of "research" seems to be asking questions of others through online social networks. I've seen people posing questions on Facebook pages, and then arguing the answers. Discussion is certainly a worthwhile form of education, better than pure lecture and better than just book learning. I've found myself somewhat critical of some of the simple questions I've seen on FB, and think to myself "there are better resources" than this, and yet I'm glad to see they are interested and wanting to know more. But really, do you just buy a set of crampons and head up Flume Slide in early winter because someone you don't know enthusiastically suggests you should because they like it? Do you head to the North Slide on Tri because you have always wanted to do that trail and someone else has said they've done it, no problem? That's where the multiple sources of learning play in, combined with common sense and shedding a strong will.

erugs said:

So, a new form of "research" seems to be asking questions of others through online social networks.

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Before civilization I imagine word of mouth was the manner in which information and knowledge was shared among people.

Best way to search the forum is the advanced Google search feature using the "site:vfft.org" qualifier.

But in this day and age of instantaneous results and lightning quick change why anyone would bother to search for old threads is beyond me. When threads such as this one get so many up to date replies why waste your time reading old, possibly out of date material?

I don't know if it was mentioned but in winter I cut my Cliff and protein bars up into bite sized pieces and put them in a zip-lock in my breast pocket. I leave both the pocket and the zip-lock open for easy access.

One of the biggest problems with the internet imo is people may seem like experts, but they are not. The amount of post you have is no reflection on your skill level. Beside,s most advice is usually worth what you pay for it.

sierra said:

One of the biggest problems with the internet imo is people may seem like experts, but they are not. The amount of post you have is no reflection on your skill level. Beside,s most advice is usually worth what you pay for it.

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Filtering the noise from the signal can sometimes be difficult, but a bit of common sense can go a long way.

Doug

sierra said:

One of the biggest problems with the internet imo is people may seem like experts, but they are not.

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Can't agree with that more, especially when reading product reviews on sites like Amazon, EMS, Backcountry.com, etc. I much prefer the dialogue style discussion of items on VFTT and the wide range of opinions and answers. I feel like I'm making a much more informed decision on something after I've run it by the contributors here. There are plenty of posts to get plenty of facts and also glean everyone's biases for brands, styles, philosophies, etc and incorporate all that into the decision versus reading on Amazon that Glen45awesomest said "This product rocks! Period." My favorite is when someone reviews a product, gives it 5 stars and their review starts with "I've haven't had a chance to use this yet but...." Really? Some comments are better than none but the running conversations here are invaluable.

I like Walker's Shortbread Cookies - lots of butter and sugar, not messy or hard to bite in the cold.

Aye, laddie. As auld Rennie McOwan wis wont tae say, "Eat little, eat often." At least every hour, whether ye feel hunger or no', yer firebox wants fuel. Mah personal preference is Nature Valley granola bars made wi' oats in a' their mony flavors: oats is a mair complex carb wi' mair protein in it than yer wheat flour. Still, butter fat, simple carb, sugar, an' plenty o' water can keep ye goin' several hours afore ye need tae stop an' eat a hot meal, or at least wi' hot drinks. Ah widnae turn doon A guid shortbread like Walker's, they ken whit they're aboot there in Strathspey, an no' jist wi' whisky.

Winter hike food

Trail mix and dried fruit are always good choices. I like to make Logan bread, which has everything you can think of in it. Each 4" square block has about 700 calories in it. It is fun to make and will not freeze. You can probably look up a recipe on line, or I can e-mail you one. When we go camping for extended outings, this is our main staple food.Good Luck!
Enjoy,
Steve

DayTrip said:

I've been messing around with what I carry for food this year quite a bit and I'm curious what people are carrying for food for winter day travel. I don't like to stop and take my pack off too often in winter so I've been reading about various options for what won't freeze, provides high calories for the weight, and doesn't taste so bad that I don't wind up eating it anyway. I usually wind up eating and drinking far less than I should for the day. (On my last hike I did 10 miles, 4000 ft vertical and only drank 16 oz of water and had 4 Dunkin Donuts old fashioned style donuts - my "go-to" trail "food" when I didn't have time to adequately prepare the night before). I don't usually feel fatigued during or after the hike (but I know this invites dehydration and hypothermia) but I do tend to be more sore than I would otherwise be the following day (obviously because I'm not getting enough fuel and nutrients). I usually leave a cooler in my car for post-hike recovery meals but again in winter this can be problematic because of the temperatures.

Anyone have a "go to" food item they carry? I have a small zip bag that I've started clipping to my hip belt with goggles and other items I want instant access too and would like to toss some food items in there so I'm not tempted to skip eating. Looking for food with maximum energy bang with minimum weight. Nuts and chocolate are popular options but they get very hard when it is real cold and my teeth aren't the greatest. I've researched some solids from endurance companies like Hammer Nutrition that say they are good in any temperature and don't spoil but I've never tried products like that. I always tend to eat real food (the old fashioned donuts not qualifying for this label of course).

Curious what others winter rations are made up of and if anyone has any "tricks" for avoiding freezing/spoiling of food and liquids (i.e. like storing water bottles upside down so the threads don't freeze), etc. Appreciate your feedback.

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DougPaul said:

My understanding of carbo loading is somewhat different. ......Since your glycogen stores are limited (~2000 cal) and your fat stores are much larger (~50000 cal), increasing ones endurance requires one to increase one's level of fat burning. This is done by large amounts of low-intensity (sub-aerobic threshold*) training. (Cyclists call this Long Slow Distance or LSD**.) Long easy hikes or walks would do it for hikers.....


Doug

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On a lighter note....

I've been bad lately, the 50,000 cal may be a bit light in my case (or did I miss the 2 or 3 above the last zero... )