Another Rescue Sat 12/21 on Adams

DougPaul said:

According to the article, they took this trail not on purpose, but due to a navigational error. It is likely that once they realized that they were on the wrong trail, they chose not to go back up what had probably been a nasty descent and may not have known what lay ahead.


People being left behind by groups happens pretty frequently. Poor (or no) leadership is a frequent cause. See http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthre...ous-error-quot&p=405246&viewfull=1#post405246 for some comments on frequent causes and prevention. It is a common factor in many accidents/lost hiker incidents etc. This victim had the good sense to exercise to keep warm while waiting for rescue.

Doug

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Probably so regarding King Ravine.

The group issue I understand as I have seen groups in the 18-20+ range but it's still inexcusable(?), inadvisable (?), risky (?) even though it happens. Headcounts, waiting at junctions, maybe knowing the name of the trail you're taking, having a sweeper, a leader...it's basic stuff....I know it's probably increasingly rare behavior. I have been on group hikes (few) that had very casual leadership in this regard, and some groups don't necessarily plan to stick together or plan to separate of course.

5 Hours of jumping jacks - I admire his will to stay warm.

Raven said:

The group issue I understand as I have seen groups in the 18-20+ range but it's still inexcusable(?), inadvisable (?), risky (?) even though it happens. Headcounts, waiting at junctions, maybe knowing the name of the trail you're taking, having a sweeper, a leader...it's basic stuff....I know it's probably increasingly rare behavior. I have been on group hikes (few) that had very casual leadership in this regard, and some groups don't necessarily plan to stick together or plan to separate of course.

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Man, I used to love running 'sweep'. Be it on a hike or Ski Patrol, its a little bit of heaven all to yourself

Yeah, sweep is good. It's nice when you catch up to public, and just patiently wait.

I've been on hikes with members here and been left behind, on Lafayette Ridge during a storm no less. The only problem was they had the keys to our car and we couldn't find them for over an hour when we got down. To this day I refuse to hike with them again and this was 6-7 years ago.

I think some confusion sets in as to who, if anyone, is in charge during a gathering of hikers.

Lawn Sale said:

I think some confusion sets in as to who, if anyone, is in charge during a gathering of hikers.

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In formal trips sponsored by an organization, there tends to be clear leadership structure and a better chance that someone will watch over the group and appoint a point and sweep. Many organizations also have formal leadership requirements and ratings (eg the AMC and some school-affiliated outing clubs).

In contrast, informal groups (eg groups that meet over the internet) are less likely to set up the control structures that keep a group together.

Groups of friends can fall anywhere on the spectrum.

Unfortunately in this day and age, leading a group without the backup of a formal organization can leave one open to a lawsuit...

Doug

DougPaul said:

In formal trips sponsored by an organization, there tends to be clear leadership structure and a better chance that someone will watch over the group and appoint a point and sweep. Many organizations also have formal leadership requirements and ratings (eg the AMC and some school-affiliated outing clubs).

In contrast, informal groups (eg groups that meet over the internet) are less likely to set up the control structures that keep a group together.

Groups of friends can fall anywhere on the spectrum.

Unfortunately in this day and age, leading a group without the backup of a formal organization can leave one open to a lawsuit...

Doug

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That seems to line up with my experience. Friends tend to at least be aware of missing people in the group as they usually are known my multiple people in the group. It's the internet groups which I have seen issues with as well. In situations where there has been no clear leader in large groups I have hiked with, I have suggested doing head counts and having sweepers after realizing no one was going to do it. Sweepers can't do much good however if groups do not wait at all trail junctions. On a large group hike I joined a few years ago where I was sweeping a couple that had gone well ahead missed the start of the Jewell Trail and were headed into the Northern Pressies unknowingly. Fortunately, they realized their error before long and turned back (after speaking with other hikers I believe on the gulf side trail). They could have had some trouble if they kept going. It was getting late in the day.

I also think some people hesitate to speak up when there is no clear leader even when the knowledge exists in the group.

And of course there's the fact that many people simply have no idea what dangers may exist on a "hike" in the WMNF. While maintaining the Ammo Ravine trail I've been asked more than once if this is "THE TRAIL" to Mount Washington...as if there's only one way up and down.

Raven said:

That seems to line up with my experience. Friends tend to at least be aware of missing people in the group as they usually are known my multiple people in the group. It's the internet groups which I have seen issues with as well. In situations where there has been no clear leader in large groups I have hiked with, I have suggested doing head counts and having sweepers after realizing no one was going to do it. Sweepers can't do much good however if groups do not wait at all trail junctions. On a large group hike I joined a few years ago where I was sweeping a couple that had gone well ahead missed the start of the Jewell Trail and were headed into the Northern Pressies unknowingly. Fortunately, they realized their error before long and turned back (after speaking with other hikers I believe on the gulf side trail). They could have had some trouble if they kept going. It was getting late in the day.

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No formula is perfect: I have a very experienced friend who often runs ahead out of contact from me. (I slow down and drop back into "solo mode" when so abandoned...) But I think friends are generally more likely to stick together than strangers.

A lone sweep requires a responsible point or at least some discipline among the speed daemons.

I also think some people hesitate to speak up when there is no clear leader even when the knowledge exists in the group.

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I have also been in the situation where an insecure (and not all that competent) leader was touchy about having his judgement or navigation questioned.

And of course there's the fact that many people simply have no idea what dangers may exist on a "hike" in the WMNF. While maintaining the Ammo Ravine trail I've been asked more than once if this is "THE TRAIL" to Mount Washington...as if there's only one way up and down.

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Beginners on their own bring their own set of hazards...

Back at my college outing club, I recall answering questions from some jerk who wanted to climb "the mountain". But then again, Mt Washington was the first WMNF summit for many of us. (And most of us even survived unscathed... )

Doug