Where would you buy (Location, location, location...) ??

peakbagger said:

One item that is not a major concern with vacation homes but should be with transitional retirement homes is the local sense of community.

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One automatic way to get involved with a community is to have kids in school, n/a for most retirees. Some local clubs want new members and new ideas, others like things the way they are.

I knew two couples with association-style homes near Glen, one moved back to Plymouth MA to be closer to kids the others got a winter place in AZ. It just seems harder to deal with cold as I get older, I think I want a garage

Hey Tim,

This is probably farther than you want to go, and I am not sure of the distance from you, but have you considered Milan? It may be farther than you like, however, there are some ponds, and it is still somewhat affordable. I have a friend who loved growing up on a pond there.

Edit: and if I'm not mistaken, a season pass to Nansen Ski area at Milan Hill State Park is about $30. There's plenty of other XC trails in the area. Cycling would be good but you'd probably be on the same few roads pretty much all the time..beautiful scenery with some hills and not much traffic....but logging trucks. Close to the Kilkenny, Northern Pressies/RMC trails.

Come to think of it, maybe I'll look in Milan.

Lots of good info here. If it were me, I would consider: 1) tax rate; 2) make sure the distance is somewhat close to amenities, and 3) as far as location, having lived in the Milan & Dummer area for 6-1/2 years... they are beautiful places, as is Shelburne. I would probably choose someplace around the North Road in Shelburne... keeping in mind the further north you go, people are generally not as friendly/accepting to outsiders, i.e. people from "down-state". Also, check out Conway Lake, although a bit more expensive, is beautiful and fairly close to everything, and Fryeburg area, although I believe property taxes are higher in Maine.

Bernerbabe said:

Also, check out Conway Lake, although a bit more expensive, is beautiful and fairly close to everything,

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I second that. Been going to that area for nearly 30 years. Two of my uncles bought a chalet in Center Conway in the 80's. Short ride into North Conway (which has pretty much everything for stores/restaurants/entertainment), about 1 hr to Gorham, 1 hr to Lincoln, 1 hr to Bethlehem and 1 hr to Sunday River in Maine so you can access most of WMNF easily and you can also travel down Rte 302 into Maine, which provides quick access to a ton of large lakes and ponds, ski areas and snowmobiling in Maine. Conway Lake has excellent small mouth/large mouth/lake trout fishing and town boat launch off road and canoe launch at the back. Many convenient access points for Saco River as well for canoeing, kayaking, fishing and even some Spring white water in spots.

Like others have mentioned though that great central location is expensive for the real estate. There are a lot of smaller towns East of North Conway and just into Maine that would provide similar benefits with lower real estate prices. I think there was a dip around 2008-9 when the economy tanked but I believe prices have sprung back pretty well in the area. Haven't looked into it in a long time. Given the desirability of the area it bodes well for resale value down the road too.

If you are in Southern NH, I really encourage you to look at the Bethel area. From Portsmouth it is about 2 1/2 hours. The hiking in excellent . SR can be good and it is not a bad day trip over to Wildcat and Mount Washington for skiing. Biking-Lots of country roads and Route 2 to haul up and down. Rangely Lakes with South Richardson being the closest are right nearby and lots of rivers and public access to the rivers and lakes. Last time I looked there was a large housing stock to choose from.

I'm mainly interested in places between Manchester, NH and the WMNF/Ski Areas. Driving past the WMNF/Ski Areas only to drive south again to access them just doesn't make too much sense to me. I'm pretty sure there isn't a perfect solution here because I've been looking for a while. This mostly means northwestern edge of the Lake Region, I think. Or north/east of Newfound / Stinson / Armington / ...

Tim

I read the thread quickly and guess I missed the location piece. I have a cousin on Silver Lake in Madison-beautiful, but very dear.

My observation is bring a really big checkbook within those geographic restrictions as that it the prime target for most of Mass and Southern NH

I know, Dennis There is a reason for that.

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

I'm mainly interested in places between Manchester, NH and the WMNF/Ski Areas. Driving past the WMNF/Ski Areas only to drive south again to access them just doesn't make too much sense to me.

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So you are talking a place maybe only an hour from where you live now? Any chance of relocating your primary home instead to split the difference? Only half the taxes/repairs.

I've thought about a lot of permutations. So far they all have drawbacks. Where I live now is really at the very edge of what I can tolerate on a daily commuting basis, so moving further north greatly reduces the job opportunities OR greatly increases the daily commute. I hate commuting so I have to be within cycling range of my job...

Yes, I know I am being picky. I'm pretty sure there is not a solution that works well for everybody involved. I have gotten a few leads worth following up from this thread and from some private messages that resulted from this thread, so thanks for those.

Tim

bobandgeri said:

JCarter - check out the Internet Thermostats available. We use the ones by BAYweb (http://www.bayweb.com/) so that we can monitor the temp remotely - get alerted if the temp drops below a threshold - turn the temp up or down remotely by web or phone - allows you to add motion detectors - monitor the temp in the basement, under the sink, and even the hot tub! You get alerted in the even of it going offline due to a power outage or Internet outages. We've been able to lower the temp when we are not there significantly saving us several hundred $$$ in propane costs and have piece of mind that all is well.

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I can't control remotely, but I have an Internet-accessible temperature monitor, and a dial-out power alarm. Unfortunately, the heating system itself is too high-tech (standard on/off thermostats can't interface to it) so adapting one of the internet T-stats is "difficult". Yes, I keep it all set to "minimum" when not there, so it doesn't cost a whole lot. Fortunately, I've not had to deal with an extended power outage during the winter (darn it, just jinxed myself).

I've looked in various parts of northern New England from time to time ... the search can be a lot of fun in learning about local trails etc. as well as unique businesses ... but every time I start to get serious I come to the same conclusion: it is fun to leave an area with no responsibilities left behind and the life cycle investment of owning, to me at this time, is less attractive than using the resources to travel North America and having complete freedom to divide time between remote campsites or forest service cabins and four star accomodations.

Having said that, it is a good time to buy as sales are still slow in some of the attractive areas and prices often a bargain. I'd limit myself to something I needn't finance but interest rates are still very low. If you're serious, it might not hurt to settle for a good "investment" that doesn't meet all your criteria with the notion of having an inflation hedge and perhaps an opportunity to create value by making certain improvements. For my part that probably means some modest acreage with prospective access to views and some of the recreational opportunities you describe. I'm busy now with a couple construction projects that'll stretch out over the next year so the last thing I need is another project but, being a retired builder and historic preservationist, the itch never goes away.

Locations I've considered are:

1) the Moosehead Lake - Millinocket area where prices are low and you might actually find something quite reasonable with water frontage (I'd prefer a navigable flatwater stream or pond (with loons) over a water body with jet skis and high powered boating. I'd avoid leased land but there are even more affordable opportunities in that.

2) the southern whites along the I-93 corridor which provide far more reasonable access - Campton, Thornton, Ashland and Sandwich are all areas I'm constantly monitoring for real estate listings and activity.

Aside from the recreational outdoor activities, the best investment probably is reasonably accessible to good restaurants, entertainment, social opportunities etc.

The greater familiarity you have with the geographic area of your interest the better ... that way you can act fast when an opportunity arises since local real estate brokers and investors will snap up the bargains very quickly.

I've been working on a similar plan for years and Jefferson was always the goal. But now that I have a kid I'm looking at the Alexandria area, as close to My Favorite Sweater as possible.
Its not unrealistic to shoot down to 93 to Derry if I have to go in to work from there now and again either. Other perks besides being closer include Newfound Lake and Sculpted Rocks nearby. I've found property in that area to be reasonably priced too. Its not as north as I wanted to be originally, but I think it'll be more family friendly and it meets my criteria for mandatory nearby earned turns.

I too had the bug last year and got real close to picking up a piece of property. My priorities were lake or pond front way off the grid with the majority of the lake protected under conservation easement or other protection. These lots are rare and when they come up they can go for big dollars but some are still reasonable. An example of this is a lot on Lake Umbagog,10.5 acres on the east shore for 500 K and it even has subdivision possibility. The majority of the lake is national wildlife refuge and the refuge is slowly buying what private land that is available. Given that camps on 100 by 100 lots have sold for 300K, ultimately that lot is a good deal but given that this lot is on the end of logging road with only seasonal access with no hope of electric power (but strangely enough internet is available) and substantial development cost, I would expect a typical owner will double the land cost before they have camp in place that will match the lot and they will not use it often as just getting to it from Gorham is a 2 to 3 hour trip if the road is passable.

Other folks have mentioned private roads and road associations. These associations can be a problem, some are voluntary and some are deeded. In the case of voluntary associations collecting for services is difficult and generally those who want the services pay the lions share of the costs while the occasional users don't pay up. Deeded associations have their issues, few folks have the time or the interest to get involved so it is quite easy for a small group of individuals to take over the association and impose their wishes and costs on the other lot owners, collecting the charges is a chore and in many cases the associations have to go to court to get paid. Generally things work out until there are major issues. I know of one group of camps on remote pond nearby (Success Pond) accessed by a long logging road (25 miles) where the logging road owner is trying to actively sell the surrounding land to a conservation organization. The road crosses several streams and routinely bridges wash out which are replaced by loggers using the road. Once the road stops being logged, the next time the bridges wash out, its up to the camp owners to fix them at considerable cost and generally unless they want to maintain the 25 miles of approach roads routinely, their camps may become only accessible by snowmobile in the winter.

As an investment rural lake lots are somewhat liquid but the reality is that with shoreland zoning and LURP rules in Maine and NHs recent default shoreland zoning, raw land on lakes is expensive to develop and many folks don't realize that effectively you can not clear any of frontage in the shoreland zone which is usually at least 75 feet deep. The approach in both states is a new building cannot be visible from the water. In Me and NH the only outright clearing that is allowed in the buffer is a 5' wide path through the buffer zone which has to be oriented so that the any development is not visible from the water. The states rules do allow some trimming but it is by permit and subject to approval. To the average person thinking of a camp, they think a wide grassy lawn with a beach and that is no longer possible with a new lot.

Unlike in the past any new construction or rehabilitation has to be done to code and permitted subsurface disposal systems are required. Thus the development cost is quite high in addition to the land cost. If someone wants the traditional camp style, then they end up buying an older place and are allowed to rehab it if its in the buffer within fairly strict limits. In most cases they just bulldoze the camp and build a new one in its footprint.

One very important thing to note is the NH default shoreland zoning is fairly recent and realtors and sellers are reported to be less than open on how the regs will impact a traditional property. I have seen several camps on 100 x 100 foot lots in remote areas for sale that are effectively prevented from any future expansion or upgrade due to the new regs. Generally they are grandfathered but if they have an outhouse it is highly unlikely that it ever can have plumbing which seems to be priority for many spouses.

The other thing to consider is demographically the peak for second homes is probably the boomer generation and some of their children. I know that when I grew up many middle class families had a camp but now most of those families cant afford it. Realistically the 20 to 30 year old set seems to be moving to the city and industry is following, thus there is a long term question if there will be demand for high price second vacation homes 20 years out. My speculation is that the drive is going to be that most folks will prefer to visit conserved areas rather than establishing a fixed vacation location. I think many of the VFTT group use this approach. Generally rural retirement homes tend to be owned by the active retirees but sold as the owners age. If they are lucky they may be able to hand it down to future generations but in most cases that is rare as the next generation is unable or uninterested to afford the carrying costs. I am aware of several camps that were handed down to an entire generation (multiple owners) this sounds like a good idea but unless there is a endowment fund that comes along with it the chores and costs tend not to be shared equally leading to some long term disputes.

My observation in the north country was that there were a lot of very high end early retirement homes built in the area during the past housing boom and many are for sale or underutilized. These 3 to 4 thousand square foot architectural gems sure wont be bought by locals working at the prison or the papermill.

Here's some links to a few examples of properties whose owners may not have been thinking long term, All quite spectacular but so far out of the way that they just don't get used.

http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...vant-Pond-Rd_Magalloway_NH_03579_M31663-00694 (about 1 hour north of Errol NH, it has been on the market for 2 years)

http://www.greenhomesforsale.com/listing/view/united_states_maine_andover_04216_19408 (about 10 miles in on the end of a dead end private dirt road which is maintained by a few neighbors, been on the market for at least two years possibly more, about 1 hour optimistically from Sunday river )

http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...othaker-Is_Rangeley-Plt_ME_04970_M30821-16930 (on a island in Mooselookmeguntic) (about 2.5 hour drive from Gorham NH to Haines Landing then a 45 minute boat ride across the water from a rented slip to the island, there are usually a one or two for sale on this island)

peakbagger said:

...Hiking is a problem, no matter where you locate, you will get "bored" of the local mountains so no matter what you will eventually drive. I.E. I can climb Madison without getting in my car but I drive all over the whites to do other peaks...

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I understand the "familiarity breeds contempt" thing, and I also see that you put quotes around the word "bored". But having been born and raised in a ghetto, I can't imagine
ever getting "bored" (quotes or not) in the northern Presidential Range area. I would love to have that problem.

peakbagger said:

http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...othaker-Is_Rangeley-Plt_ME_04970_M30821-16930 (on a island in Mooselookmeguntic) (about 2.5 hour drive from Gorham NH to South Arm than a 20 minute boat ride across the water from a rented slip to the island, there are usually a one or two for sale on this island)

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Slight correction: South Arm is on Richardson Lake, whereas Toothaker Island is on Mooselookmeguntic. Most peple there either haul a boat and go to the public boat launch, rent a slip on the northern end of the lake (Haines Landing), or have rights to a private landing. Living on that island has major challenges, especially the boat ride, as that lake can get VERY rough. How do I know? I have a cabin on the mainland, across the lake from the island.

Thanks Marty I will correct my mistake on Toothaker island, makes it even more impractical

With regard to Billy's post, I agree "bored" is a relatively thing but after being here 20 plus years I like to visit different spots. I guess even Baskin Robbins employees get bored of the 31 flavors eventually. I still like my options with 2 hours I can just about make it to some of the greens, all of the whites and the Rangeley Sugarloaf region isn't that far. I think that's why I did most of the 100 highest as day trips.

I can't imagine ever getting "bored" (quotes or not) in the northern Presidential Range area. I would love to have that problem.

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And I can't help but think that many (most?) of us would love to have the "problem" of deciding where to buy a second home. Or not. I have a hard enough time keeping up with ONE home!

I'm with TEO, Post#2: a Sprinter is the "second home" of our dreams. For now, a Honda Element suffices!

In the scope of the thread, I'll add my thoughts on owning a rustic camp for anyone considering it. This would not meet Tim's needs, but I have been very happy with the tradeoffs and pros and cons of a camp as compared to a second home (which was not an option financially anyway).

I've owned a rustic, off grid small camp in Randolph for 10 years. I live between 2 and 2.5 hours away in southern NH and the drive is perfect. I'm there on average two weekends a month and probably spend half of July and August there, so I use it frequently. I did not want to own something I did not get to use a lot.

It's a glorified shed on posts with no foundation. It's taxed as undeveloped land. 24x14 with a loft over half that I cannot stand up in. One door. Pretty well insulated. There's a big woodstove but no other heat. 2 weeks ago, it was 4 degrees inside at 4PM when I arrived after a hike. Some don't think that's too cool - I think it's fun. There's no well, no grid access, no septic. Here's how I have made it more comfortable:

There's a spring on the property above the camp. Using a gravity-fed system made of a 5-gallon bucket with holes and some PVC tubes, I can deliver water to a 30 gallon drum near the camp. The drop is enough to get pressure equivalant to a hose. Inside the camp, I've set up a DC electrical system that runs on deep-cycle marine batteries. I rotate a few of these which can be charged at home and I have a solar panel backup at the camp which needs replacing at this point. The batteries run a DC pump that pumps water from the drum into the camp. I have a sink and shower. The pump runs on a switch. I have lights which run on the batteries as well as an inverter with a standard AC outlet and USB so I can plug things in. I have a portable hot water heater that is ignited with 2 D-batteries and uses a 20 pound gas grill propane tank for fuel. It's hot. The toilet is an RV system with holding tank. A cooler suffices for a refrigerator, although keeping things cool is often not challenging. The last time I was there, the beer was getting colder after taking it out of the cooler and the water I dumped in the sink from a bottle froze on contact with the metal basin A couple hours later I had to open a window as it had gotten to 82 degrees. Big stove.

In ten years, I've never had to purchase fire wood. The lot is fully wooded and I get plenty of fire wood by cutting the yearly downed trees, by removing ones too close to the camp, or by selctive harvesting. By carefully selecting trees to cut, they grow faster than I can cut them, so the biomass is increasing on the lot.

The lot is buildable; this was an important consideration for me and one I think anyone purchasing a camp should find out about. There's often a minimum size lot necessary for building a home. It opens up more possibilities for building my own home later at my own pace, for expanding the camp, or simply for resale value.

It takes a lot of physical work to maintain, but in the right situation, it may be an option for people considering a second home but don't want all of the extra responsibilities. There's no need to keep heat on; I let the place freeze solid. I leave drinking water there. Frozen water doesn't go bad and it thaws next to the stove. I have down comforters.

I often snowshoe in to the camp, get the stove going within minutes of being there since I stay set up for it, and once I have unloaded my gear, I leave for town to get supplies, grab a meal, etc while the place warms a bit, especially if its in the single digits when I arrive.

It's really a basic place that I've made comfortable with some hard work and thinking "outside the grid." I added a tent platform and built a deck that sits on boulders, both from salvage wood that I picked up for free.

Randolph is a unique place....really unique. Once a year, Lowe's garage has "Dancing 'round the Pumps" and where else do people do charades in the woods at a place like Mossy Glen that looks like fairies dance there. I can walk to a lake, swimming hole, clay tennis court, and the summit of Mount Adams.

If anyone had any specific questions, I'd be happy to answer. It's generally a more affordable option than a home and the maintenance costs are low and there's very little that can go wrong.