Cost of hiking on Franconia Ridge - fail

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You may find holding your palm on top of the poles grip and lengthening them accordingly say 3-4 inches helps. I have wrist problems from injury and can't hold them by the grip.

elsewise: it occured to me that this new 25 dollar card is gathering steam in the house. I think until then that they should establish a criteria that outlines exactly what dos and donts make you more likely to be accountable. I'm also concerned that with a card program people will feel an unrealistic safety net exists, even if only infrequently, the consequences have harsh potential.

I just thought I might mention that it's very interesting to see what kind of responses come about when the topic is public service and protection of human life. the rhetoric is alot more lucid and cooperative than some other topics.....very interesting.
 
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I'll add that while I do try to speak truthfully, I will also chose to hold my tongue if my words are not necessary or would instigate more of a problem with another person.

But if a rescuer is asking me when was the "last time" something went "in" or "out" I would not hold back on my answer. Medically speaking, it is in my best interests.

A few years ago, I could not walk on my own because my right foot had such pain. A few days later I was leading a hike into Carrigain. My own judgment for hiking spoke to the fact that I have Lyme disease and aches and pains come and go. However, if I had needed a rescue or assistance getting back to my car I would have been criticized for my choice in hiking. But I was fine and had made the right call for me based on my sense of things. Would I have admitted I had been using crutches two days prior to a 10 mile hike? I think so - no, I know so, for the best information to be available. As they say, sometimes the truth hurts.
 
What I read here is blatant self-denial of this Michigander's physical limitations. I read here his doctor's saying it's okay to hike up that ridge. I read here a lawyer taking as much money as possible defending poor judgement/stupidity. I agree with Fish and Game charging that much for the effort to carry this idiot off the ridge. This "hiker" placed alot of S&R people in harms ways because he was in self denial of his limitations. This "hiker" had absolutely no excuse being out there. It's one thing to get hurt out there and need S&R. That's the risk we all take when out there. This"hiker's" self denial is a whole different ballgame. This guy should have won the Darwin award.
LavaFalls
 
What I read here is blatant self-denial of this Michigander's physical limitations. I read here his doctor's saying it's okay to hike up that ridge. I read here a lawyer taking as much money as possible defending poor judgement/stupidity. I agree with Fish and Game charging that much for the effort to carry this idiot off the ridge. This "hiker" placed alot of S&R people in harms ways because he was in self denial of his limitations. This "hiker" had absolutely no excuse being out there. It's one thing to get hurt out there and need S&R. That's the risk we all take when out there. This"hiker's" self denial is a whole different ballgame. This guy should have won the Darwin award.
LavaFalls
Would respectfully say you are right on a lot of key points but I would assume this guy does not want all the attention and does not have the money to pay. Anyone will say anything to get out of ten grand. Maybe they should have a sliding scale based on income level? Hats off to the rescuers who Did put themselves at risk. Life is all about biting off more then you can chew then seeing what happens afterwards with varied results. People are always going to mess up in Franconia notch, it seems like clockwork at this point. The question is what is a uniform response? Evidence seems to point towards a fine/fee having a negative effect on rescues but that does not change the way NH does things..
 
Sliding scale based on income level? I pray we never get to that point. My stupidity costs more because I make more (ignoring the fact that I contribute more via taxes)?

Gawd help us if we go down that path...
 
Sliding scale based on income level? I pray we never get to that point. My stupidity costs more because I make more (ignoring the fact that I contribute more via taxes)?

Gawd help us if we go down that path...
Just saying there are people who make less than 10 grand a year, so charging them 10 grand means even on a payment plan they will never get the debt payed off with interest[ I am assuming there would be interest]. I do not know how much this rescued hiker makes a year..Lots of people think there should be no charge at all so it seems a sliding scale is better then nothing? Not going to address which hiker is more stupid then the other, seems we have gone around and around on this issue for a while now. peace [added comment; there should be a cap also imho of no more then 5 grand for everyone. the ten grand is a tourist turn off for nh]
 
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you know I hate to say it, but when I still lived in the mountains....like most New Hampshirites, even I didn't like people from out of state, not even where I spent some time growing up in Mass. Overtime I came to understand both sides, why mellow northerners are perturbed by what they perceive as very coy, intense people, often in a huge rush and not even realizing it, to the point where it disturbs others....and also that society in each place has it's own way that fits for that place and speed of life. I recognize the differences which are relative, suitable and appropriate. Certainly i don't expect someone from Freedom NH to gel in downtown NY, or vice versa. That doesnt mean I subscribe to one of them as being healthy though.
That aside as a disclaimer. It really is true that there is a HUGE amount of prejudice against out of staters, and it's very hard for me to ignore the idea, that old-yank attitudes are playing a role in punishing this guy as a statement to others; a statement that says: "you cant come to our state and act like a damned stupid flat-lander however you please." Even though I do agree he was very foolhardy, I think that 9300 dollars is an over-inflated infringement on his liberties that potentially threatens his welfare and subsistence. The "witch-hunt" tape is one that societies all too often play again and again despite eons of growth. Even here in this forum, heated opinions lead to some very extreme statements and righteous indignation about civil liberties, perhaps some which is paranoid and brash.
Sadly, hiking is so important to me that I could see myself struggling with denial at age someday and striking out with canes........but probably on the walk to Zealand falls or picture pond, not Green leaf!!!!!!!
But this witch-hunt thing is important. Its a component of society which unlike animals we as humans have the capacity to grow beyond. I once said in a secular document addressing the astronomical rise of atheism, "There is much skepticism and aversion in the west today with regard to organized religion. However, it does not do us any good to react with the same extremes which were responsible for our skepticism to begin with."
The human condition, especially western, and especially U.S. society is very unforgiving. Living in that unforgiving society causes great insecurity and often causes us to feel like we need to take up with one camp or the other. Usually feelings of anger cause aversion and drive people away from each other and objects, while enjoyments draw people toward one another and objects, so much that sometimes we collide or get entangled and then feel averse again. In feeling and being averse, we become alienated and run over-zealously back to a collision. Our nation, just like any other, constantly gets caught up in the embarrassing energy sink of public blame games and crucifixions, while collaborative efforts remain neglected. In doing so, and by taking up rigid positions on either side, we end up at outposts with limited networks and supplies. We participate in the big insidious cycles of life bouncing between liking and hating.
But what if we were to ask the question: was this man hiking smoothly up until only several years before??? was he saying to himself that very day," damn, I just can't do this anymore." ???? becasue we cannot account for his disposition or establish true negligence with any real fortitude, then what is applicable??? I'll tell you what. The court cannot function as a social institution. That failure happens again and again in America, and I cite the example of a dentist in North Conway who caught his wife cheating with private investigators but could not provide photo proof in court. He paid so severely in child support and alimony that he moved in with his mother, ate poorly and drove an ancient Jetta with ultra high miles on it. Courts cannot function as social institutions, nor government.
Because we fail to have social institutions, we need what in interim???........rules. Each state needs to have non rigid rules that act as guidelines for safe, responsible hiking, and they need to be public notice via all media channels and paper mediums.....so that EVERYONE has recourse. However, as a very arrogant and what I consider an immature society that shuns public institutions, we need a safety net. That safety net is a common ground. That common ground is universal ethics. There is values that everyone recognizes and agrees with. The right not be hit or sworn at. To be treated with decency. If as a society we identify and build on these universal agreements, it gives us a fertile soil to face these controversial topics when they arise. Some would say we already have such a bill of rights, but the bill of rights does not account for the endless science that reveals clearly how enmity engenders illogical outcomes, or that compassion reduces stress hormones and improves cognitive ability and critical thinking skills, Yet all of us do not wanted to be treated without compassion.
Although we as a society are not ready for it yet, there needs to be these values, and why?? .....because they are salutary.... ineluctably salutary. Positive values and accords engender positive outcomes. Without that climate to protect many of us from the ramifications of our or others inability to use freedom in a healthy way, then when these conflicts arise we react with extremism and take up highly disparate positions. Our dug in opinions stun us into ineffectiveness, while issues persist. It is not to say that we cannot make mistakes, but with these values mistakes have an almost inherently positive,construcitve forum to be received in. And becasue we have not these ethics to protect us, we have no leg to stand on for difficult issues, such that political incorrectness hangs the halls of society like landmines. We all want freedom but we just can't seem to accept yet that in a world where people on different continents are connected by computers, and we lack physical space and solitude even in wilderness, we have an overwhelming need to embrace the tractability of loving kindness and brotherly aid. No longer can the aspirations of all be met without obligation to each-other. Can we not have both tolerance and accountability??? are we such fools?? why is it so difficult?? because of un-salutary values and emotions which we deem acceptable, and at the very least we simply neglect to point out the reward of positive ethics. There is a painfully easy grace of equanimity, but it requires that we as a society agree that satisfactory life among one another........is all about taking enough personal responsibility to be nice.
 
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Hmm? Two canes? Why do you have two canes? I use them to help me walk because the knees are not as good as when I was young ... Two hiking poles? .... Personally I see no difference.
 
Hmm? Two canes? Why do you have two canes? I use them to help me walk because the knees are not as good as when I was young ... Two hiking poles? .... Personally I see no difference.

I have no idea if your talking to me becasue it doesnt sound like it logically. i didi mention hypothetically having two canes someday figuratively speaking, poles, no different....but if there is anyone who has lived through health problems and knows about accepting limitations its me. Thankgod, I'm no longer very ill with cancer, but i still struggle with keeping it under control and I cant hike like I used to. I have gone through very bad bouts, and pains. So, just make sure you dont tell this "young lad" that I'm not compassionate or reasonable. As a certified alpine mountaineer I know when its downright unacceptable to take certain risks, and multiple hip surgeries is one thing, but multiple dislocations and repeated failure of the same hipjoint is a no brainer. Hiking over LAffayete and down to greenleaf is inappropriate, and the weather was avoidable. It just would have meant that his ego was bruised.....or that the normal venture of turning back in bad weather proved not feasible because his condition wouldnt even permit him to walk around the alternate and longer path......he certainly could not have bushwhacked into thick spruce to get away from a storm.....I wont go there. its pointless. NO one can pull the " young lad" routine on me. I already went through having moratoriums on hiking or even getting up out of bed for two days at a time. if anyone knows about collapsing or pushing it too much it's me. and its becasue of my CORRECT decisions and restraint that i am well and can hike again. I'm also a medical student lol.
 
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Hmm? Two canes? Why do you have two canes? I use them to help me walk because the knees are not as good as when I was young ... Two hiking poles? .... Personally I see no difference.
John, did you ever meet Larry Braun? He hiked with a hiking pole/cane hybrid. He could hike as well as any younger person, when he was in his late 60's. He told me that amongst other things, the cane tip (soft, large, rounded) did not dig up the side of the trail as much as metal tipped poles.
 
There is a wheelchair ramp at Galehead hut and they are fining (charging) a guy for having a bad hip and using canes? Is this court ruling ADA compliant?
 
There is a wheelchair ramp at Galehead hut and they are fining (charging) a guy for having a bad hip and using canes? Is this court ruling ADA compliant?

And that ramp has been used by wheelchairs also. (granted they were supported by a team but they did get there. (I've walked up the ramp also)
 
And that ramp has been used by wheelchairs also. (granted they were supported by a team but they did get there. (I've walked up the ramp also)

I laugh whenever I see that ramp. Anyone who could get up the trail to Galehead Hut in a wheelchair could certainly get on the porch without a ramp.
 
Hmm? Two canes? Why do you have two canes? I use them to help me walk because the knees are not as good as when I was young ... Two hiking poles? .... Personally I see no difference.

No but have you ever considered that there might be a difference between hiking (hands-free) and pole walking? And Lowell George said he had his head "stoved" in not snowed in, but maybe you're just being ironic.
 
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And that ramp has been used by wheelchairs also. (granted they were supported by a team but they did get there. (I've walked up the ramp also)

That was kind of the point, they couldn't get there without a lot of assistance. However, once there, they were able to move about unassisted. The other thing the ADA did was to help with doorknobs and such making it easier for arthritic or hikers with upper body prosthetics to open doors. The ramp isn't very costly, the width of doorways, bathroom stalls and hallways may have cost a bunk or two and when it was being built, they had to retro-fit as initially the AMC thought the then new law would not apply.
 
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I took this hiker's picture on top of Mt Liberty the previous afternoon. I watched him hike down using his canes and I was pretty surprised that a person with such a cautious gait could have made it to the top of the mountain. We had a conversation about what hiking he used to do. He seemed to be someone who had fond memories of being in the mountains. We talked about the weather predictions for the next day, and he knew that there would be foul weather the next day. And he knew he would be on an exposed ridge. My impression was that the fond memories of yesteryear clouded good judgement. He was out of shape, and tentative with the use of the canes. I was not at all surprised to hear he needed to be rescued.
 
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I was hiking the Caps Ridge Trail this summer and an older gent was hiking down when I was descending. He was using some form of walking stick/cane in each hand (maybe one stick, but I think two) and his gait as he walked made it seem as though his legs just swung forward freely in their hip sockets as he walked. He was deliberate and slow in each step but very steady and I am guessing he was quite possibly in his late 70's. He didn't look like he was a stranger to the trails. I thought he might have some trouble on the few scrambles on the way down. I slowed my pace a bit and said hi and hung with him for a few minutes without making it obvious before moving on my way. This guy was in good shape for his age it seemed, but he was not moving like he was 50 either. It was a nice day with little chance of precipitation or hypothermia issues.

By simple appearances, it looked like he could find himself in a rescue situation pretty quickly from a fall, but appearances can be deceiving.

Whatever his age, he still gets to decide what is safe to hike. I certainly hope I can manage Jefferson at that age.
 
And that ramp has been used by wheelchairs also. (granted they were supported by a team but they did get there. (I've walked up the ramp also)

The last-minute changes added $30K to $50K to a ~$400K building according to http://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/17/us/for-these-trailblazers-wheelchairs-matter.html

Doug

A friend at work who only has one leg was part of the commission in NH that reviews appeals including the one AMC raised with building the ramp. I asked him why in the hell did the commission force the AMC to build that ramp knowing that .00001 percent who are wheelchair bound would use it. The thought process was that if the commission approved this appeal, it would open the gates to approve more. I told him I personally disagreed with that assessment.
 
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