Trail respect

Last weekend, hiking up Gothics from Ausable Road/Buttermilk Falls, the trail was a total mess from two(* hikers). It was two, because there were two distinct footprints in the ice/snow, post-holed all the way to the summit and back. At places in the trail you could see they went at least three feet into the snow. These (*hikers) destroyed the trail-path. Using snowshoes on this rock hard frozen uneven surface made the ascent and descent tougher. The usual spots for butt slides were destroyed. Trail conditons were bad until you started to level out, then you could get the snow shoes on and make time. It was good snow from the col between Armstrong and Gothics, to the Gothics summit. Once on Gothics I saw eight/nine? guys (from Baltimore, Hartford, elsewhere) in crampons. They had snowshoes on their packs. I said it's deep enough for snowshoes from here to the col. They ignored it and went down in crampons and destroyed that part of the trail.
What is with these types? The two a-hole post holers, this big group? It's clear they don't care on what they do. The two postholers...I ever meet them on the trail...I'll (*deleted).
LavaFalls.

So, if I cannot afford snowshoes, I'm not allowed to go for a walk in the woods?

dug said:

So, if I cannot afford snowshoes, I'm not allowed to go for a walk in the woods?

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In parts of NY, the answer is yes.

David Metsky said:

In parts of NY, the answer is yes.

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According to the NY DEC website, snowshoes or skis are required on all High Peak Wilderness trails. This was updated on 2/21, so it's rather current.

I guess I'm getting a kick out of the fact that the butt slide routes were trashed by people walking in the woods.

I don't posthole, but don't carry the venom for those that do....

I generally support the snowshoe reg, but I also caught the irony of that one point... Thanks.

Post holing in deep snow isn't much fun. I don't know why people do it. I don't like that they make the trails more difficult.

I love the beauty of a beautiful snowshoe tread.

Question: Do people kicking steps in to a steep slope annoy those who want to butt slide down? I know that butt slid tracks make it more difficult for me to step down. But because butt sliding is fun, it has approval. Strange world. Guess we all have to adjust to not having things the way we like.

I love the beauty of a beautiful snowshoe tread. Oh, I just said that.

I know a guy that refuses to wear snowshoes because he says they make him walk funny, and they is no convincing him of saving the trail for other users. I'll only take him if I know the conditions are super consolidated.

I was doing a little ski tour last year, and was similarly cursing those a-holes that had destroyed the trail by postholing it all to heck. Then I came around a corner and discovered that the a-holes were actually a single (large) moose. My attitude quickly readjusted!

erugs said:

Post holing in deep snow isn't much fun. I don't know why people do it.

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I really don't get this either. When you're sinking in up to your crotch with every footstep it is brutally exhausting and potentially dangerous (hyperextending knees if you're moving briskly, getting caught in buried evergreens, etc). Unless you're doing it for the "bragging rights" of saying you bare booted the trail or you simply can't afford gear so it's your only option I don't get it. Hard to imagine it being enjoyable even in the slightest. But enough people do it so I guess there is something there I'm missing. I'll take my snowshoes any day.

As far as dealing with the aftermath of post holing I treat it just like any other dangerous trail condition: pay attention, put the proper traction on and negotiate it. If you hit your favorite stretch of trail and it was covered in 2' of slick, solid ice or buried in three foot snow drifts you'd have to do the same thing. And with my 6' 3" 230 lb body (plus 30lb pack of stuff) I can drive those smaller 24" trail snow shoes right down to the ground in powdery snow. Is that considered post holing too?

I might not get why people do it but I'm not going to condemn such behavior just because I don't agree with it. Unless someone is willfully and maliciously creating a harmful situation for hikers (like say cutting the bottom of a log crossing a stream so the next guy over snaps it and drops into the rocks and water) it's hard to get all bent out of shape over it. While negotiating post holes is potentially dangerous I wouldn't put post holing into that category.

Just have to take the conditions as they come, whether man-made or natural.

If you can't get enough of this debate, head over here

http://adkhighpeaks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24189

TJsName said:

I know a guy that refuses to wear snowshoes because he says they make him walk funny, and they is no convincing him of saving the trail for other users. I'll only take him if I know the conditions are super consolidated.

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Might I suggest that you take him out on a day with breakable crust over deep unconsolidated powder? Even better if the crust holds snowshoers up but not bare booters...

You get extra credit if you act impatient and inconsiderate of slowpokes...


I have noticed that reluctance to use snowshoes correlates with lack of skill in their use (and/or refusal to buy or rent them.)

Doug

Tom Rankin said:

If you can't get enough of this debate, head over here

http://adkhighpeaks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24189

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Might you be hinting that this year's annual "I hate postholers" thread is getting started later than usual?

Doug

LavaFalls said:

... The two postholers...I ever meet them on the trail...I'll knee-cap them.
LavaFalls.

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Best. 18th. Post. Ever!

Should I reference Tonya Harding or Harold Ramis? Lighten up, Francis. But thank you for adding actual out-loud giggles to my lunch!

I walk in the woods down here on the MA coastal plain, and the state trails are, um, a 'land of many uses.' I have to put up with postholes, snow-shoes tracks, ski tracks and even horses, which have the bad manners of pooping where they please. Sometimes I wonder if I should add a huge pile of my own just to keep things interesting.

I too do not really appreciate butt-slid trails. I wonder if I can get a horse to go up the ladders on Willey just to make a statement?

Or should I be like DayTrip and just play it as it lies?

While I agree that other users of land I don't own can sometimes be annoying, I generally try to keep my rage below the 'knee-cap' and just enjoy the day.

Envision Robert DeNiro asking "Whattaya gonna do?"

"Not like at home, no!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32OsZBsCIRM

Peace out, bro, and thanks again for the laughs!

DougPaul said:

Might you be hinting that this year's annual "I hate postholers" thread is getting started later than usual?

Doug

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I don't believe this was technically the first post hole conversation of the season. I believe there were some rumblings in earlier threads but it does not seem to have gained as much momentum this year. Could the debate finally be fizzling out?? (Insert skeptical facial expression here).

Tom Rankin said:

If you can't get enough of this debate, head over here

http://adkhighpeaks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24189

Click to expand...

Good grief! I thought the old threads I found on VFTT were lengthy.....

DougPaul said:

I have noticed that reluctance to use snowshoes correlates with lack of skill in their use (and/or refusal to buy or rent them.)
Doug

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Or might it be, reluctance to carry snowshoes, assuming the trail has already been "consolidated"? I'm somewhat new to winter hiking though I've been in this position and felt the glare and silent opprobrium of the snowshoe-wearers. I come from a mindset that eschews excess weight and but maybe that's not a good mindset for winter hiking.

Post-holing can result in very dangerous conditions for others to follow when the soft snow refreezes. I was descending after a solo hike and moving at a good pace. The packed trail was very solid after several very cold days, so I was safely bare booting. However, someone had post-holed on the trail earlier in the week and the post hole was now frozen solid and hidden under a layer of fluffy snow. I never saw it. My forward momentum almost caused me to break my leg when I fell in.

Please be considerate of others who share the trail with you. Thanks!

DayTrip said:

I don't believe this was technically the first post hole conversation of the season. I believe there were some rumblings in earlier threads but it does not seem to have gained as much momentum this year. Could the debate finally be fizzling out?? (Insert skeptical facial expression here).

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There have been various comments here and there, but I think this is the first thread where postholing is the main topic.

Fizzing out? Not likely. There have always been and likely always be enough new postholers to replace those who reform or retire.

Doug

DougPaul said:

Might I suggest that you take him out on a day with breakable crust over deep unconsolidated powder? Even better if the crust holds snowshoers up but not bare booters...

You get extra credit if you act impatient and inconsiderate of slowpokes...


I have noticed that reluctance to use snowshoes correlates with lack of skill in their use (and/or refusal to buy or rent them.)

Doug

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Haha, I like where your head is it. The sad thing? He can probably still go faster than me even with him postholing through hell.