Deep Pemi Ski Touring Advice? (Paging Becca and Doug)

Primarily paging Becca and Doug as a long delayed follow up to their (astounding) TR on their Pemi Lollipop tour. Happily seeking input from anybody though!

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?39621-Pemi-Ski-Loop-in-Less-than-30-Hours-)

I've got questions both about gear and route finding.

GEAR

Was wondering if you could say more about your skis of choice. As I understand it, Doug, you had skis with tips in the 65mm to 75mm range, which would be my pick as well. Did you have any troubles with floatation in the more untracked snow in the deep interior? Would you go longer (full traditional) or wider (like the old Catamounts)? I would think the former would favor faster travel. But a recent N/S trip was done on very wide Vectors and the guy cited liking the float. Thoughts?

Could you talk a bit about what gear you brought in the case of a forced bivy? I'd like to hear discussion of the full rig and the approach? Shovel for a snow shelter? Tarp to cut wind? Sleeping bag? Pad or pine boughs? Definite safety vs speed issue here.

Could you talk a bit about stove/fire materials? Did you bring anything in this regard?

Could you say more on your thoughts between wax and no-wax?

Could you say more about camber? I love higher double camber on the flats (e.g. Zealand Rd, East side south of the gate) but don't care for them when the trails get rougher sections (e.g. Zealand Notch, lower part of Cedar Brook along the river. I would reconsider higher camber for deep snow float if that's an issue in the interior.

ROUTE
Assuming a NS bid (I'm considering this for next year), could you say more about the route choices between Thoreau Falls and Shoal Pond. I'm concerned about dealing with the drop at the falls and getting bogged down with stream crossings along TFT, but then I get concerned with route finding and spruce car wash slow downs down through Stillwater.

I've not connected the dots (either on foot of by skis) between the CedarBrook/Wilderness Trail juniction and Thoreau Falls/Ethan Pond trail. Trying to decide on which variant.

Also thinking hard about the lollipop!!

Lastly, as a non-GPS person, where did you get the GPS way points for TFT and Shoal Pond. I'm pretty confident in map and compass dead reckoning on skis but also recognize that this could lead to terrain traps that the trail might avoid, so there's a speed factor here.


Stunning TR. Stunning achievement, BTW.

dave.m said:

GEAR

Was wondering if you could say more about your skis of choice. As I understand it, Doug, you had skis with tips in the 65mm to 75mm range, which would be my pick as well. Did you have any troubles with floatation in the more untracked snow in the deep interior? Would you go longer (full traditional) or wider (like the old Catamounts)? I would think the former would favor faster travel. But a recent N/S trip was done on very wide Vectors and the guy cited liking the float. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

It's a long tour--efficiency will make or break you. Also, I'm not a fast skier, but my endurance is good if I am not rushed.

The majority of the route is kick-and-glide.

The only extended steep downhill would be heading S on the N part of the TFT (descending parallel to the falls, too difficult for me to ski). One of my partners on the 2014 traverse told me that he did a lot of traversing--I probably would have to walk it. (Since my broken leg, I cannot do a kick turn.) There were certainly shorter sections that I had to sidestep on all three trips, both up and down. Depending on the terrain and snow conditions, I also walked short sections.

* 2003 solo Lollipop (N on TFT, S on SPT): I waited for good conditions and pounced on 4-6 inches of fresh powder over a hard rain crust and used waxable Tua Escapes (190 cm, 65/54/60, camber and a half). I had to break out most of the TFT and SPT, but the breaking was easy and I didn't sink in very far. I used skins on the N half of the TFT. These skis were a great choice--they are good kick-and-glide skis and the wax was significantly more efficient than waxless would have been.

* 2011 Lollipop with Becca (N on TFT, S on SPT): The time was dictated by Becca's work schedule, but the snow conditions were pretty good (otherwise I wouldn't have gone). I chose my waxless Karhu Pinnacles (185 cm, 67/56/58, camber and a half) because the first part of East Side Rd near Lincoln Woods was hard packed by foot traffic. The surface became powder (and eventually deep powder) somewhere beyond the wilderness boundary and the skis became too inefficient. (I needed to hop to get adequate grip which cost too much energy with ~28 lbs on my back...) I waxed the skis with blue extra at this point and regained my efficiency. (I kept them waxed for the rest of the trip. We also waxed Becca's waxless skis.) There was a track up to about half way up the TFT and we had to break the rest of the way to the EPT. The first mile or so of the SPT was broken (to the viewpoint over the pond) and the rest was unbroken. Becca was faster than I and did most of the breaking, but it wasn't difficult--we were only sinking in ~3-4 inches. So, in effect, we used waxable kick-and-glide skis for most of the trip.

* 2014 N-S Traverse with 2 others: (Used my waxless Karhu Pinnacles). One of the party had skied the first part of the East Side Rd the day before and suggested that waxless skis were the choice of the day. Conditions were a crusty surface near Lincoln Woods and we had reports of ~2in of fresh powder on top at Zealand Hut. Zealand road and trail to the hut had a packed powder surface and was good skiing. (However, my kick was weak and wax again was a significant improvement.) When we reached the Notch, we found that a bit more snow had fallen so that conditions were ~3 in of unconsolidated powder over a crust. This was ok until we headed down the SPT where the crust became breakable and the powder decreased, finally becoming only a dusting by Lincoln Woods. The others were again faster than I and did the breaking, but now the conditions were thin powder over breakable crust so I mostly saw a mixture of broken crust and powder, resulting in my having a poor kick and, while purple wax helped significantly, it was soon scraped off. I struggled. (So much for my efficiency. I'm wondering if other waxless skis might work better in such conditions...) I think the others had similarly relatively narrow BC skis and flotation was not an issue--none of us were going more than a few inches down into the snow.

The guy on the Vectors appeared to be skiing down the falls--IMO that calls for heavy Tele or AT gear. (BTW, shortly before the turn to Zealand Hut during the traverse, I spotted Tele skis on a guy--he had been skiing the birch glades above the hut.)

Could you talk a bit about what gear you brought in the case of a forced bivy? I'd like to hear discussion of the full rig and the approach? Shovel for a snow shelter? Tarp to cut wind? Sleeping bag? Pad or pine boughs? Definite safety vs speed issue here.

Click to expand...

We both carried bivy gear--I had a lightweight emergency bivy sack, a closed cell pad, down jacket, side-zip fleece pants, and booties. No shovel. We also carried extra water (2 L each) and food. GPS, headlamps, and spare batteries. My total pack weight was ~28 lbs. Becca's pack and weight was similar.

Could you talk a bit about stove/fire materials? Did you bring anything in this regard?

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We had fire starting materials, but no stove.

Could you say more on your thoughts between wax and no-wax?

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I basically needed wax on all three trips. (Perhaps I needed grippier waxless skis for the waxless trips--hopping to set one's patterns for 25 mi with 28lbs on my back is too much for me...) On the other hand, my partners on the traverse seemed to be OK on their waxless skis. My advice is to wait for good waxing conditions and use waxable skis. (I didn't try kicker skins--they might work better than waxless in the conditions that I encountered on the traverse.)

Could you say more about camber? I love higher double camber on the flats (e.g. Zealand Rd, East side south of the gate) but don't care for them when the trails get rougher sections (e.g. Zealand Notch, lower part of Cedar Brook along the river. I would reconsider higher camber for deep snow float if that's an issue in the interior.

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IMO, you need a hard-packed flat track for a double camber to work well. I wouldn't want more than a soft camber and a half, particularly for a waxless ski. (I have a pair of skis with a camber that is too strong for my weight--they don't work well off piste.) You should be prepared for breaking trail yourself or a soft track in the BC portion of the trip.

Note: I put kick wax on the entire ski for the BC.

(continued)

Doug

dave.m said:

ROUTE
Assuming a NS bid (I'm considering this for next year), could you say more about the route choices between Thoreau Falls and Shoal Pond. I'm concerned about dealing with the drop at the falls and getting bogged down with stream crossings along TFT, but then I get concerned with route finding and spruce car wash slow downs down through Stillwater.

I've not connected the dots (either on foot of by skis) between the CedarBrook/Wilderness Trail juniction and Thoreau Falls/Ethan Pond trail. Trying to decide on which variant.

Also thinking hard about the lollipop!!

Click to expand...

Basically, TFT has the steep section alongside the falls (21 mi total traverse length) and SPT is gentler, but has 4 good-sized stream crossings and potential trail finding difficulties (23 mi total traverse length). The lollipop from Lincoln Woods is 25mi and has all of the above but no carspot...

Lastly, as a non-GPS person, where did you get the GPS way points for TFT and Shoal Pond. I'm pretty confident in map and compass dead reckoning on skis but also recognize that this could lead to terrain traps that the trail might avoid, so there's a speed factor here.

Click to expand...

Navigation was no problem in 2003 (before wilderness designation, night on SPT) and 2014 (some trail maintenance had been done and we had daylight), but we had difficulty and needed the GPS in 2011 because we had trouble finding the stream crossing above Thoreau Falls (dark, poorly marked, open woods) and much of the SPT had been defacto abandoned, was grown in and, of course, it was dark.

Particularly if you do the lollipop, you need to be prepared to navigate in the dark.

I didn't use any waypoints--I used the WMNF trail tracks described in http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?38643-WMNF-GIS-trails-data-GPX (The tracks are gone from the original website--see http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?52139-GPS-tracks-for-NH-4K for a current source.) This enabled us to stay on the trail at a non-obvious sharp turn and get back to the trail when we strayed. It also helped us to find the trail after a stream crossing.

There was also a spot shortly after the crossing at Stillwater Junction where the trail headed steeply down (a short cliff?) off the edge of a bluff with no clue in the open woods on top of the bluff. We never would have found the trail without the GPS. (BTW, this spot will be easy to find but might be hard to climb S-N on the SPT.) Other friends have told me that they bushwacked in a general direction after losing the trail here. On the traverse, we bypassed this spot by skiing on the river and going back on land almost directly below the spot where the trail descended down the cliff. (I don't recall this spot at all from 2003, but obviously I had to pass it or go around it...)

I have heard tales of people having to bushwack sections (using M&C) after losing the trail, but, of course, bushwacking is much slower than staying on the trail. Becca and I were of the opinion that we would have had to turn back without the GPS.

Doug

DougPaul said:

We both carried bivy gear--I had a lightweight emergency bivy sack, a closed cell pad, down jacket, side-zip fleece pants, and booties. No shovel. We also carried extra water (2 L each) and food. GPS, headlamps, and spare batteries. My total pack weight was ~28 lbs. Becca's pack and weight was similar.


We had fire starting materials, but no stove.

Click to expand...

What is interesting about these sorts of things is the tension between contingencies and speed. Both contribute to safety. Chouinard's comment about bivy gear...

Worst case scenario in my mind is a skier getting soaked in a crossing plus getting hurt and incapacitated, forcing an unplanned night in the woods. I've had 3 team mates go in up their knees on various trips and, of course, know about your injury, so I see this as a possibility.

Would you mind saying more your bivy and sleeping bag combo? Full winter bag or a 20f summer bag to bze used in conjunction with puffy jacket and pants? Is your plan to sleep in the bivy on open ground, dig a snow trench (with boughs on top), make a shelter out of boughs?

Regarding water and fire... Did you carry a pot of any kind to melt/heat water? Curious about your firestarter (I carry both swatches of tack cloth and a few Esbits).

Sounds like we're entirely on the same page regarding ski choice. Could you say what, if anything you brought for field repair? Pole splint? Spare bindings? Leather/nylon strap (for the Rotty's slots) for a jury rig bail?

Thanks so much!

DougPaul said:

Basically, TFT has the steep section alongside the falls (21 mi total traverse length) and SPT is gentler, but has 4 good-sized stream crossings and potential trail finding difficulties (23 mi total traverse length). The lollipop from Lincoln Woods is 25mi and has all of the above but no carspot...

Click to expand...

From the sound of it, we may be loosing the SPT to the wild. I skied the Rob Brook (swamp) trail several years ago and noted that the entrance is essentially impossible to find coming off of the Nanamacomuck this year. It was a total car wash and very hard to find and it's sounding like the lower bit of SPT and the WT near Stillwater is heading that direction. Mixed feelings on that....

The Lollipop has captured my imagination but the first time needs to be the NS traverse. Sounding like TFT is the surer bet.

I've got a few concerns about TFT heading south-bound...

The Falls - I'm assuming to use skins for a controlled descent/walk on the skier's left of the falls. The WMG and (old) Goodman describe this as rough going. Feasible? Does is make more sense to cross the North Branch on EPT and then angle into the drainage on a long traverse, or would just lead to spruce/terrain traps?

Traps Along the North Fork - The WMG describes a spot or two where the trail leaves the rail bed to avoid bad brook crossings. Also describes some ledgy bits. I'm reasonably optimistic of being able to dead reckon through here on a compass bearing using the river and small ridge to the east as "guardrails". Is the rail bed/trail fairly obvious as the you head south? Enough that it should be findable or does it matter? Another way to ask this is what are wood like on the east side of the North Fork? Tight balsam (really want to find the rail bed) or hard woods (easy enough to navigate)?

Bridge Across the East Branch - Still there? Easy find? Trustworthy?

dave.m said:

What is interesting about these sorts of things is the tension between contingencies and speed. Both contribute to safety. Chouinard's comment about bivy gear...

Click to expand...

Yes, Chouinard's comment is well known...

Many these days carry a lot less than we did.

Worst case scenario in my mind is a skier getting soaked in a crossing plus getting hurt and incapacitated, forcing an unplanned night in the woods. I've had 3 team mates go in up their knees on various trips and, of course, know about your injury, so I see this as a possibility.

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The risk/gear trade-off is obvious. When I chose the time, cold weather in the recent past was one of the requirements and wouldn't have gone if it had been too warm. One of my partners on the 2014 traverse said that he has had to take his shoes off and wade on some past trips. (He has been trying to do a traverse every year for a number of years.)

Becca and I each dipped a foot (through the snow) into the same stream during a (bare-boot) crossing on the way back, but it was quick in and quick out--neither of us needed to do anything about it. I was wearing high gaiters and I think Becca was also. No problems on the other trips.

Would you mind saying more your bivy and sleeping bag combo? Full winter bag or a 20f summer bag to bze used in conjunction with puffy jacket and pants? Is your plan to sleep in the bivy on open ground, dig a snow trench (with boughs on top), make a shelter out of boughs?

Click to expand...

Bivy sack, hard shell, down jacket, side-zip fleece pants, spare socks, and booties. No bag. I also had waterproof-breathable side-zip shell pants that I could put over the fleece pants. (I don't recall exactly what Becca carried, but IIRC it was similar.) I now have a Blizzard bag (14oz) and carried it on the 2014 traverse.

If necessary, we could have dug a trench with our ski tails and covered it with the bivy sack. Something like http://www.rei.com/product/650213/snow-claw-guide-snow-shovel might be worth considering. (Yet another 6.1 oz.)

Regarding water and fire... Did you carry a pot of any kind to melt/heat water? Curious about your firestarter (I carry both swatches of tack cloth and a few Esbits).

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Just matches, lighters, and maybe an Esbit. Don't remember exactly on the tinder/burnables. Don't think we had a pot. We did run out of water on the way back but were able to resupply at an open stream after a good bit.

Sounds like we're entirely on the same page regarding ski choice. Could you say what, if anything you brought for field repair? Pole splint? Spare bindings? Leather/nylon strap (for the Rotty's slots) for a jury rig bail?

Click to expand...

My gear was pretty rugged--the skis and bindings (Rottefella Super Tele 3-pin) have proven themselves to be stronger than one of my legs... Binding buddy and screws, tape, buckle straps, cord. No splint. Becca was using one of the NNN (or similar) family bindings and will have to speak for herself. (As a result of this trip, she has switched to 3-pin...)

Becca and I had never met before the trip--we exchanged emails and talked on the phone before going. Our philosophies of what to carry were pretty similar.

The above is pretty much all from memory and there were minor variations between trips. (I don't keep gear or peaks-bagged lists...)

I think you know the trade-offs about as well as I do. You just have to decide what you are comfortable doing and carrying and hope nothing happens that you cannot handle. (FWIW, I am an AAC member which gives me $5K/$10K rescue insurance anywhere in the world...)

Quite a few people ski the traverse every winter--it isn't that difficult and you may have tracks to follow for part of it. (Just make sure you wait for good conditions.) BTW, the traverses are described in Goodman's guidebook. (Note: the SPT is in much better condition than he describes.)

Don't forget--the most dangerous part of the trip is the drive home.

Doug

dave.m said:

From the sound of it, we may be loosing the SPT to the wild. I skied the Rob Brook (swamp) trail several years ago and noted that the entrance is essentially impossible to find coming off of the Nanamacomuck this year. It was a total car wash and very hard to find and it's sounding like the lower bit of SPT and the WT near Stillwater is heading that direction. Mixed feelings on that....

Click to expand...

The SPT had seen some maintenance between 2011 and 2014. While we often had to brush against spruce tips from both sides, the way was clear and there was no difficulty getting through. There was only one blowdown that forced us off the trail and no "hunt for the youngest trees and dive in". It might still be difficult to find the spot to drop off the side of the bluff (just S of Stillwater Jct), but we went around the bluff (on the river) this time. (Just knowing about the dropoff and where to look for it would be most of the battle...) A very different experience from 2011.

The Lollipop has captured my imagination but the first time needs to be the NS traverse. Sounding like TFT is the surer bet.

Click to expand...

I like the lollipop because it does the best of both routes and doesn't require a car spot (particularly useful for a solo...). (I had skied the approaches from both ends before the 2003 solo.) And it isn't much longer than either of the traverses (25 vs 23 or 21 mi).

I've got a few concerns about TFT heading south-bound...

The Falls - I'm assuming to use skins for a controlled descent/walk on the skier's left of the falls. The WMG and (old) Goodman describe this as rough going. Feasible? Does is make more sense to cross the North Branch on EPT and then angle into the drainage on a long traverse, or would just lead to spruce/terrain traps?

Click to expand...

I've only done the TFT S-N so I have only been up the section of the TFT beside the falls. It was steep enough to require skins and some pulling on vegetation in a few spots. I couldn't ski down it safely. My traverse friend said that he uses a lot of traverses to make his way down. I'd probably have to do a lot of side stepping or walking to get down safely. A good downhill tree skier might do better, but that is not me. On a S-N, finding the best spot to turn uphill has been difficult--there are often multiple sets of tracks coming down in different places, but that shouldn't be an issue for N-S.) I've never done any of the other variations and prefer to avoid skiing on the rivers. I think I would prefer to do the TFT S-N because of the steep section.

We had difficulty trail finding between the top of the steeps and the stream crossing just above the falls in 2011. Open woods, no markings, no good tracks, deep snow, darkness etc. Don't know what it would be like in the other direction.

Traps Along the North Fork - The WMG describes a spot or two where the trail leaves the rail bed to avoid bad brook crossings. Also describes some ledgy bits. I'm reasonably optimistic of being able to dead reckon through here on a compass bearing using the river and small ridge to the east as "guardrails". Is the rail bed/trail fairly obvious as the you head south? Enough that it should be findable or does it matter? Another way to ask this is what are wood like on the east side of the North Fork? Tight balsam (really want to find the rail bed) or hard woods (easy enough to navigate)?

Click to expand...

The trail corridor below the falls section was pretty/very easy to follow in 2003 and 2011. There is one spot of open trees where I/we lost the trail, but it was obvious where it entered the trees on the N side. Don't know how obvious the entry would be on the S side. I don't think you should have much trouble N-S.

Bridge Across the East Branch - Still there? Easy find? Trustworthy?

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It was fine in 2011 and Becca has reported it to still be OK more recently. (Check her trip reports.) The trail follows the N Fork, turns left, and leads to the bridge.

For the 2014 N-S traverse, we chose the SPT route due to the difficulty of descending the steeps on the TFT on thin unconsolidated powder over crust. I also wanted to see the SPT in daylight...

Doug

dave.m said:

I skied the Rob Brook (swamp) trail several years ago and noted that the entrance is essentially impossible to find coming off of the Nanamacomuck this year. It was a total car wash and very hard to find....

Click to expand...

That section of trail was intentionally closed a couple of years ago. Much of it is under water, making it hard to maintain, and with very low use, the FS decided the best solution was to close it.

Edit: Is it really true that the famous pinnah has never skied a standard N-S Pemi Traverse? When good conditions arrive next year, don't hesitate... go for it.

dave.m said:

I've got a few concerns about TFT heading south-bound...

The Falls - I'm assuming to use skins for a controlled descent/walk on the skier's left of the falls. The WMG and (old) Goodman describe this as rough going. Feasible? Does is make more sense to cross the North Branch on EPT and then angle into the drainage on a long traverse, or would just lead to spruce/terrain traps?

Click to expand...

Skiers left of the falls is steep but relatively short. When I did it a few years ago in challenging snow conditions, I tried a controlled ski descent but then just took off my skis and carefully postholed my way down. I wouldn't stress out over this.

Traps Along the North Fork - The WMG describes a spot or two where the trail leaves the rail bed to avoid bad brook crossings. Also describes some ledgy bits. I'm reasonably optimistic of being able to dead reckon through here on a compass bearing using the river and small ridge to the east as "guardrails". Is the rail bed/trail fairly obvious as the you head south? Enough that it should be findable or does it matter? Another way to ask this is what are wood like on the east side of the North Fork? Tight balsam (really want to find the rail bed) or hard woods (easy enough to navigate)?

Click to expand...

The TFT is mostly through young balsam fir and spruce trees. Staying on the trail is ideal, but the woods vary if I recall right. The trail is not always intuitive, but as you say, you've got good "guardrails" so I don't think you can go that wrong. I suspect that if you go in late winter, and not immediately after a storm, you'll probably be following tracks anyway.

Bridge Across the East Branch - Still there? Easy find? Trustworthy?

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Don't look at the stringers... just cross it and keep skiing.

Heh. I'm a poseur, what can I say.

Waiting for the right set of things to come together. Pieces in place ow that haven't been in terms of partners. Hoping for next year. Definite bucket list.

Doug, glad to have state of SPT clarified. My preferred route for sure. Actually think of shorter Ethan pond, SPT to Lincoln variant. I think Ept is prettier than Zealand Rd.

dave.m said:

Waiting for the right set of things to come together. Pieces in place ow that haven't been in terms of partners. Hoping for next year. Definite bucket list.

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Wanna hear my guiding rates?

(Just for the record the previous line is a joke--I am not a commercial guide and do not accept payment for leading or going on trips.)

While I had done every inch of the trails previously, the traverse was on my bucket list too.

Doug, glad to have state of SPT clarified. My preferred route for sure. Actually think of shorter Ethan pond, SPT to Lincoln variant. I think Ept is prettier than Zealand Rd.

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Actually, someone else reported the maintenance here on VFTT*. We (the 2014 crew) just skied it, but it didn't have as much "adventure" as the 2011 trip...

* Found the thread: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?50162-Shoal-Pond-Trail Thanks--your efforts are much appreciated by those of us who are foolish enough to ski the SPT. Also a hiking conditions report: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthre...arrigain-Notch-Desolation-Signal-Ridge-Trails

The road is just a road but Zealand Tr is pretty and Zealand Notch is worth skiing at least once in your life. (The Notch does have some no-fall zones and the railbed has washed out in some spots.) EPT knocks 4mi off the route and skins might be useful on the first part. Sounds wimpy to me...

Or better yet, just do the lollipop...

Doug

dave.m said:

Heh. I'm a poseur, what can I say.

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If you're a poseur, you seem to be doing a darn good job of it!

Lots of "must do" trips, never enough time... that's a story I can relate to.