Hiking with a partner.

I read the Gonzales piece "Lost" a few weeks back and something has bothered me. The story uses the example of Ken Killip. Ken was hiking with a friend. This friend was a stronger hiker and Ken was not feeling weel. This friend hiked on leaving Ken far far behind so that when bad weather approached Ken found himself in a survival situation. Panic set in and Ken injured himself.

My concern is, when hiking with somebody, don't you look out for each other? It sounds like they were on coinciding solo hikes. Do some hike "every man for himself" and "if you are not out when I reach the car I will send help." When you are with somebody you can watch each other. Remind each other of the turn around time. Watch for signs of panic, hypothermia etc...

Any thoughts on this?

I think it depends . . . during the winter people tend to stick together and in "groups" of 2-4, people tend to stick together but in larger groups you do tend to spread out and maybe lose track of the slower ones.

When someone doesn't feel well, people do wait up and take care of each other. But, during summertime and extended backpacking trips, I have been on trips where we have decided to see each other at camp at the end of the day. I read the "lost" story as well and have to agree that in that particular situation with 2 people, bad weather and illness, I would've stuck with someone.

sli74

The Buddy System....

Kinda reminds me of the way some scuba divers practice the "Buddy System" of diving... that is the "Same Day Same Ocean" approach.

In diving (as with backpacking) some dive solo, but most dive with buddies. Both have their pros and cons and both are acceptable depending on circumstances and as lon as it is PLANNED that way in ADVANCE... not just happened that way at the spur of the moment.
Capt.Jim

I agree with you, sli. I think Summer or Winter, a "group" should stick together, or have a defined plan if they separate.

Any of the Outdoor Leadership schools will tell you this. When I'm the "leader," I usually walk "sweep" in the rear, as long as it's clear where we're going. On bushwacks, if the leader is also the one with the land navigation skills, it pays to deputize someone to sweep.

If the group is splitting, there needs to be a defined location and timeframe for regrouping or at least for communication (as in cell phone call "we made it out to the car").

The majority of hiking accidents or searches I've been involved in or read about resulted from groups being separated without a plan. The death about ten years ago on Snowy (adks) was a classic example: The school group was strung out without a sweeper, and did not wait at trail junction. Separated individual in the back, takes wrong turn on sidetrail to lookout, running to catch up, runs off 200' cliff. You can suggest a lot of things here, but the root cause was allowing the group to be separated.

TCD

Good question. Most of the time I hike with my wife and a friend so if one of us cannot continue, we all turn back. If, on the other hand, I’m hiking with a new group, I’m not certain of the protocol if someone cannot continue. I have only been presented with this situation once before and the person who could not continue was led down the mountain by one of our group.

I prefer not to let any one person fall too far behind so that if he/she turns around, the rest of the group is not notified.

When I hike with my wife and friend, I am the fastest hiker. This coming Friday, however, I will probably be the slowest hiker, so it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I always try to check on the entire group, whether it's a group of 2 or 20, summer or winter, and it seems that everyone I have hiked with looks after each other.
I read the article too and several questions pop up, but the bottom line is that none of us know what the mental condition of each hiker was at the time of the incident or what caused his partner to take off without looking back. Obviously we need to make sure we never hike with that guy.

Remember "Touching the Void"?.....would you cut the rope?
(OK, maybe Ken's situation wasn't as extreme, but I like asking this question )

Its Simple IMHO. Hikesafe states... "Start as a group, End as a group."

When I hike, regardless of how fast I PERSONALLY want to go... the slow hiker always leads so that we go at their pace and we all stay together. The ONE time in my entire life I strayed from this belief, Panama Jack ended up face down in the snow wondering if I had died. The proofs in the puddin baby!

SJ

I am also careful in judging groups or hiking buddies that hike ahead because I am almost always the slowest hiker so I am usually the one "getting left behind" . . . however, I come FULLY prepared as though I am solo even when I am in a large group and always want my hiking partners to feel comfortable hiking ahead and knowing I will be okay. Anyone that I hike with knows my pace and knows when to worry and when it is just me being my slow self.

The few times I am the stronger hiker I still hike behind everyone because if there is actually someone slower than me, they would probably be happy to have someone watch out for them.

So, the sticking together also depends on each person's experience, ability and comfort being solo . . .

All these thoughts seem jumbled but I cannot seem to get my thoughts in order today . . . sorry !

sli74

Read trip reports

This website is rife with trip reports in which the group marches on while an obviously sick person turns back and tries to make it out to the trailhead. At least two in just the last week alone.
I'm glad someone brought this up. Your obligation is to make sure your partner gets out of the woods alive.
Clearly, this is a result of goal-hiking and this is a goal-hiking website.
Think people first.

I will guiltily admit to having left a much slower hiker behind some years ago when putting in 20+ mile days on the AT in Shenandoah. He always caught up to us, but the last day he didn't make it in until just about dark. I rationalized that it was a busy trail no further than about a mile at any given point from a road. So if something happened, he'd probably be ok. After finding out that he needed bypass surgery the next year, I realized one of the unconsidered risks of leaving him behind.

At a minimum, if groups are going to split up, then this plan should be understood up front by all members and each should be prepared and equipped for a solo venture.

jjmcgo said:

Clearly, this is a result of goal-hiking and this is a goal-hiking website.
Think people first.

Click to expand...

Quite a generalization about some 1700+ people, don't you think?

I do believe one can be goal-oriented and still think people first.

sli74

A couple of weeks ago we hiked Allen and one of us who is usually a very strong and fast hiker dragged his ass big time on the way out. The group cruised then waited at a key point (the sand pit) but I stopped and hung back for a good 15 mins. before my suffering hiking buddy caught up to me. He said, "you don't have to wait". That, of course, was crazy. In fact, I had already turned around and was slowly going back along the trail when he came over the height of land. Suppose he had become disoriented or was suffering from hypoglycemia or something. I had no knowledge of his medical history.
Imagine cruising then waiting for a long, long time for someone. Finally, someone goes back to find that person incoherant, hours from the TH. All that time wasted...

The group that leaves together stays close together. And there aint no more to say!

P.S. My friend rallyed and finished the day just fine.

jjmcgo said:

Clearly, this is a result of goal-hiking and this is a goal-hiking website.
Think people first.

Click to expand...

Kinda harsh generalization JJMcgo. If you look hard enough, you can always find a couple bad apples. I have found that most people on this site care about their fellow hiker and most of the threads are here to help and to give advice through experience (good or bad) in order to make things safer for the next person. Information sharing is the key to this sites success. From newbie to Denali climber, everyone can get something useful here. Not goals, but qualified information from those that stick out their hand in generosity.

Our recent Isolation trip is a great example....11 people in together....11 people out together, no summit, so no "goal" was acheived. Why? If we all didn't or couldn't make it together, we weren't going. 10+ hours later, we were back at the trailhead....together. But we'll try again....together, and hopefully make it this time.

This is another situation depends thing. A story:

Last October I joined Sli74 on a pemi outer/inner loop backpack. I told her I may need to jet a day early back to NYC since it such a damn long ride. There were 5 people on this trip. 2 were at a generally slower pace, two fast one hovered in between ish. The fast groups lunch stop everyday was about 2 hours, allowing for the rear to catch up and some time for us to chill together. Towards the end of the trip, the day we went over the Bonds there was that cool-cold vertical fine rain. The fast group went faster and didn't really take any breaks. By the time we got to the days destination, Fraconica Brook Campsites I was so close to my car that doing the inner loop didn't have as much appeal to me as say, Woodstock brewery did. This idea was contagious. We waited for the rear guard, but the wait itself in the cool rain was becoming it's own problem, it could be several hours.

So, the quicker three, left a note at the campground registration and abandoned our rear guard to the elements and the fates. I was a bit worried, but more that they wouldn't get the message than there would be a crisis. We weren't tightly integrated gear wise, so that wasn't a concern and our rear guard having one just off the AT, the other off the Long Trail were capable.

Anyway folks, yes, I abandoned Sli on a hike she invited me on to eat a whole lotta food and drink beer and then sent the remainder of the fast group back in as I drove home.

Now if the rear guard said they were sick, or had never backpacked, or was tightly sharing gear, or we were traversing technical terrain the story would have been different.

I have always made it a hard & fast rule on any ADK or AMC trips I've led that fastest folks have to stop at at trail intersections, trail turns, vistas, summits, water crossings... and wait for the group to catch up.

I beleive hiking and participating in a group is just that. If you want to be on your own, then go for it, but please don't come to the group prepared to go do your own thing and use us as a car shuttle - that isn't cool.

I also tend to stay in the back of the group if leading, although I find that when following slower folks, sometimes it is very tiring to hike slow (no offense to slow hikers, as I hike slow uphill). But, I also look at everyone on a trip and try to silenty evaluate their strong points if we were ever to get in trouble.

I wouldn't consider leaving someone behind and not going back to check on them in any circumstance. I also believe that if someone needs to turn around and I cannot find someone responsible to go back with that person, the group should turn around. I also usually outline this and make sure folks understand in the trip sign-up process.

Reminds me of a fellow that hiked with the ADK in Rochester NY. He was somewhat unfriendly and ornery to the point where some tripleaders would put him on the waiting list, rather than deal with his desires to change leader plans, trip itineraries, start times, camping spot and the like.
He also had a tendency to walk by us silently when we took breaks and take his own further down the trail, as well as not camp with us, preferring to go on 1/8 mile or so and set up camp. I asked him after one trip why he signs up but does not participate - He said since he was an old guy, he was worried that if something happened to him he would need help gettng out of the woods - otherwise he didn't like groups. I told him if he didn't start being a little less ornery to folks and a lot more friendly, he could probably count on folks doing nothing more than dragging him 100 feet off the trail if something did happen to him. He hasn't spoken to me since

Personally, I think the answer to this question is like a lot of things in life: It depends. Not every circumstance is the same and therefore the answer is not always binary. It’s not the type of question you go to a textbook to look up the answer.

To jjmcgo: if you are referring to my latest trip report, the thing that is obvious to me is that you were not there and obviously do not understand the situation nor do you understand the condition of the hiker who turned back. Your statement would be a hasty generalization at best and your use of the word “obvious” would be misplaced.

This is not the first time I was on a hike where someone turned back due to not feeling well. Your experience will tell you if the person needs to be accompanied or not. When in doubt, you err on the side of safety. There are a lot of factors other than “all for one and one for all” that will determine your decision.

I agree that someone leaving a group is something the whole group needs to know and discuss at the time of the decision. Having fewer in your group now changes the dynamics and potential strength of the group as you continue, should you choose to do so. Having these type of discussions at the front end of the process also helps set expectations correctly.

Should eight people be forced to turn around ¾ of a mile into a hike because someone ate something at breakfast that did not agree with them and wanted to turn back? Judgment, experience, and circumstances will help you make the decision.

JohnL

This thread highlights reason I often hesitate to join others on hikes. I am an extremely slow hiker (especially on the uphills) and I feel horrible having people wait for me constantly (particularly if the weather is bad.) Every hike I've been on, people have waited at each trail junction for the group to regroup. Even though I tell others prior to the trip that I hike slow and waiting is not necessary, they always do (which goes to show that people are being put way ahead of the ultimate goal.)

My trip reports keep getting me in trouble lately but, yes, I recently turned back while the rest of the group kept going up Mt. Liberty. On that hike, I had a stomach ache that got increasingly worse and the group did nothing but express concern about me. My hiking partners were waiting for me to catch up for about the millionth time when I finally decided to turn back. I am 100 percent positive that all three of them would have turned around in a heartbeat if I said it was necessary or I was in real trouble.

I was fully aware of the terrain (as I headed back the way we came,) & knew that I had plenty of daylight for a slow hike down. I had enough gear in my pack that if something drastic were to happen I could just get in my sleeping bag and wait on the side of the trail since my group would also be hiking down that way. So, I encouraged them to hike on because there was no sense in ending the trip for everyone. It was the right decision for the situation and I believe that all these decisions need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

-Ivy

Staying together

I think the winter AMC / GMC / Catamount group hikes have the ideal approach. Leaders screen participants for suitability, then everyone stays more or less together, certainly regrouping fully every 15-20 minutes or so.

I have been on several VFTT group hikes, and I have organized a few hikes with VFTT folks. Let's face it, these hikes are essentially leaderless. Many of the people I have met through VFTT don't want to go on an AMC chapter led hike, in part because there each participant does have to stick with the leader's plan. Many of us here at VFTT feel as if we are self-sufficient winter hikers, and most of us are. I get the feeling that many of us don't want to hike in a tight group where a leader tells us when we are turning around.

On one group winter hike I more or less organized a few years ago, I did have two people turn around (separately) early in the day on a very long hike, and I have never felt right about it to this day. My only lame excuse is that some of these VFTT hikes get out of control when people join in with 2 or 3 degrees of separation from the non-leading organizers. That day, the folks out front were way too far ahead to involve in any decisions further back. Certainly, all were capable.

So, while I agree that it is all well and good for the whole group to stay close together in winter, in practice with independent types getting together for a little herd immunity, it's not always what happens.
Oh, and I always wait for sli.

I have been on 2 hikes where someone turned back and one of those people was my own 16 year old son.
He, myself and my wife were doing Tabletop when he declared that his ankle was hurting a lot. We were just past the high water bridge above Marcy Dam. I gave him the car keys and 10 bucks and my wife and I continued on while he went back.

The next was a group of 7 overnight winter trip. After 2 miles from UW on the Calamity brook trail one member said he didn't feel up to the trip and turned around. I was impressed with his maturity and judgement but at no time did anyone consider scrapping the trip.
So it all boils down to this...It depends.

My experiences: (Usually I'm the slow one)

John L & I on a hike in October in Presidentials, he did Clay, I took Gulfside, we were pretty close up to Monroe, we opted to split, he did Ike, I went down Ammo

Have led school groups, adults always in front & back

With one friend I did lot of the Whites with when I was starting out, trail functions in summer, much closer in fall & winter

Did a trip with an AMC Chapter several years ago, Flu symptoms hit on drive up the day before, had miserable night. froze until about 2:00, then fever broke, couldn't eat. Plan was to do Carter Dome, I made it up about 100 yeards on Carter Dome trail before leg cramped lifting snowshoe over a blowdown. Told leader I was turing around, they were reluctant to let me go back solo but I explained I did many solo hikes & if I continued they would be carrying my pack (maybe me) from a lot higher.

Now what happens when the leaders need to be rescued, ala Fisher & Hall? Granted we aren't on Everest but trip hikes aren't led by Visteurs, Cotter, etc either