One Day Pemi Loop - 21 hikers

una_dogger said:

I read the listing and was disappointed not to see any mention of LNT ethics or Wilderness Regs - something I would personally be looking for to gauge the "Group Mind" of any organized hike I would be considering - purely a personal preference and filter. Sorry to say for me, the mere mention of the entity "Meet Up"'conjures up images of loud, large groups, and my perception is shaped by my encounters.

That said, when I was a fledgling hiker, it was pre- Internet (I'm old!) and any organized hikes I joined were lead by local conservation chapters/naturalists, etc. Given my introduction to hiking, my expectations of Meet Up is that it in part be used as a modern vehicle to engage and inform as well as organize outings, but realistically that is up to the MU Group itself to project that mission. Not doing so, IMHO, is a missed opportunity.

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This would be like me saying that I've seen some irresponsible dog owners out in the wilderness so I'm against everyone who hikes with their dog. That's not the case though because I've hiked with some some wonderful dog owners and their pets. Much like not all dog owners are the same, not all meetup groups, or even organizers within each group, are the same.

I can only speak for the group that I run but we limit group size and look for people trained in outdoor leadership (which includes LNT) to lead our trips - almost all of the active leaders have been through programs run by the AMC.

I personally start each hike by talking about the expectations while we are out there and explaining some of the key elements of LNT - travel on durable surfaces, pack out what you pack in, respect the wildlife and other visitors, etc. if there is a limit imposed by either Wilderness Protection Area or others I talk about why the limit exists and how it impacts us.

On a recent hike we came upon quite a bit of erosion and new trails around a muddy section so I took the opportunity to demonstrate why we travel on durable surfaces. We also talked about how to travel above treeline without causing damage to alpine vegetation.

I've come across loud and obnoxious groups that consisted of only two or three people while out on the trail so I'm not sure it's a group mentality but rather an individual mentality. It may show up more in some groups because they have more of those types of individuals within it.

akafuzzjones said:

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I've come across loud and obnoxious groups that consisted of only two or three people while out on the trail so I'm not sure it's a group mentality but rather an individual mentality. It may show up more in some groups because they have more of those types of individuals within it.

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Think of it this way: Sit in a restaurant with 4 tables of 4 people each. Notice the noise they make. Now, sit in a restaurant with 16 people at a table. Notice their noise level. You would be hard-pressed to say the smaller groupings make less noise. There's more interaction, yelling across the table, a joke brings 15 peolpe laughing vs. 3, etc. It's reality that more people congregated in a similar area will create more noise, overall. Of course, isolated instances on both sides can and will be present on occasion.

Great great post, Dennis.

Michael- I think you misunderstood my intent. You asked about perceptions of Meet Ups, why people tend to lump them together in their minds.

I honestly shared that, given past experience, the "thought" of a Meet Up Group "conjures an image" in my mind. That does not state or imply that my opinion is static - in fact, my very point was that I searched the link to give the group the benefit of the doubt, and I think that for me, a group that "puts it out there" that they believe in and promote LNT/Wilderness values would personally attract me as a hiker, which demonstrates an open mind, no?

We all have preferences....happy trails.

I'm not a fan of large groups, they take up alot of trail space and create alot of noise, and to be frank are so preoccupied with thier own being, seem to selfish towards hikers they encounter. I think the Wilderness rule of 10 is a great rule, the very foundation of Wilderness ethics is trampeled on by a large group in many ways. I would encourage the FS to ticket any group of this size, educating them in the process. I think too the point on leadership and control of the group is a good point. I think trying to keep after a group over the size of ten anywhere is taking a risk. Even for a group of ten, I think two leaders is needed, a group of 21, maybe four. You have to consider the group having to split up for whatever reason, weather or injury. Not to mention the potential personality conflicts. Personally, Im not a group fan, 99% of the time its me and my Dog, I guess I dont see how you can enjoy the woods with 20 other people, but hey, to each his own.

Some good points being stated here.

If anyone out there still reads books, may I suggest Wilderness Ethics, by L&G Waterman? IMHO this book, specifically Chapter 7 ("The Numbers Racket - Large Parties and Wildness"), should be required reading for anyone leading groups into the backcountry. This goes for the AMC, Meetup, college/school groups, religious groups, etc. I have personally witnessed each of these four groups break the group-size rule. (Anything by Ed Abbey would be suggested reading as well.)

One winter's day I met a huge Meetup group on the side of Adams. (I was solo.) The gap between the first and last person was maybe two minutes. I knew it was a Meetup group because I saw a trip report the next day.

Me: "Wow, you have a large group."
Participant: "Oh, we're two groups of 10." (Wink, wink, giggle, giggle...)

Another time, there was a Meetup listing for a "long run" in the Mt. Mansfield-Sterling area of VT... in early May. Apparently this particular leader was clueless or didn't care that those particular trails are closed during mud season.

Not to single out Meetup, I have also witnessed a certain well-known AMC-affiliated hiking group blatantly disregarding the group size limit in the Sandwich Range Wilderness. And anyone who does any late summer backpacking on the LT or AT in these parts is aware of the college groups. (Has this gotten better in the last few years?)

Finally, just because a person does trail work or other good things, it doesn't give them license to break the rules... IMHO.

[Edit] Also, "being okay" with a large group of hikers/runners is moot. It doesn't change the regulation.

una_dogger said:

Great great post, Dennis.

Michael- I think you misunderstood my intent. You asked about perceptions of Meet Ups, why people tend to lump them together in their minds.

I honestly shared that, given past experience, the "thought" of a Meet Up Group "conjures an image" in my mind. That does not state or imply that my opinion is static - in fact, my very point was that I searched the link to give the group the benefit of the doubt, and I think that for me, a group that "puts it out there" that they believe in and promote LNT/Wilderness values would personally attract me as a hiker, which demonstrates an open mind, no?

We all have preferences....happy trails.

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The point I was trying to make is that there are groups out there that try to do things the right way and to lump them together with those that don't while easy to do, isn't accurate.

peakbagger said:

For several years when the Lincoln Woods cabin was staffed by FS, every group over 10 was challenged if they tried to cross the bridge and groups were turned back if they were over 10 or did not have an outfitter guide card. In many other spots in the whites at the same time, bus loads of youth groups routinely were hiking Tuckermans. It all comes down to the forest supervisor or the district ranger on what priorities are to be enforced by their staff.

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Note that Tucks is not a Wilderness Area hence no group size limit

Are Meetup leaders like AMC leaders required to have outfitter/guide cards, this would cure such abuses fast as they could be revoked with fines for continuing to lead?

Stinkyfeet said:

I have also witnessed a certain well-known AMC-affiliated hiking group blatantly disregarding the group size limit in the Sandwich Range Wilderness. And anyone who does any late summer backpacking on the LT or AT in these parts is aware of the college groups. (Has this gotten better in the last few years?)

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Many 4k are in Wilderness but Adams isn't one of them, note that since Owls Head doesn't have an official trail groups there are supposedly limited by an off-trail group size of 4

The GMC has a staffer to outreach to groups including colleges, obviously some are more receptive than others

My bad Roy thanks for catching it, of course as an organized group outfitter guides cards are still in theory required (despite rare enforcement). When I got them for our scout group years ago, we were limited to a group size of 10 anywhere in the WMNF.

RoySwkr said:

Are Meetup leaders like AMC leaders required to have outfitter/guide cards, this would cure such abuses fast as they could be revoked with fines for continuing to lead?

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No, they aren't.

Meetup, like VFTT groups, facebook groups, church groups, etc, don't fall under the interpretation of the groups that need outfitter guide permits.

RoySwkr said:

Are Meetup leaders like AMC leaders required to have outfitter/guide cards, this would cure such abuses fast as they could be revoked with fines for continuing to lead?

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I carry one when out as a leader / instructor with AMC and I reached out to the forest service several years ago to find out if also needed when out with meetup and was told no.

What are the odds that everyone in the group completes the hike within a few minutes of each other? 0% or .01%? FS regulations aside, I guess I just don't get the point of having any sort of meet-up group do a hike of that caliber. There's no way they all stick together, so why bother with a group at all? Then you just raise all sorts of "hike together or break apart" questions. Does the leader even have any responsibilities once they begin the hike? What's the advantage of being a participant?

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't take a hike of that caliber with anyone except some trusted friends.

RoySwkr said:

Many 4k are in Wilderness but Adams isn't one of them, note that since Owls Head doesn't have an official trail groups there are supposedly limited by an off-trail group size of 4

The GMC has a staffer to outreach to groups including colleges, obviously some are more receptive than others

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What is this off-trail group size of 4? I don't see that in the WMNF Wilderness regs.

akafuzzjones said:

I carry one when out as a leader / instructor with AMC and I reached out to the forest service several years ago to find out if also needed when out with meetup and was told no.

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Interesting. Is the outfitter permit a federal or a state thing, or both?

It is a federal permit obtained from the district supervisor. It can be a can of worms as the supervisor can put restrictions on its use in the WMNF. The llama bus that used to run in Evans Notch was only permitted in Evans Notch and the Kilkenny region

This reminds me of a sport I used to participate in: off-road motorcycling. In Enduro races, four riders would start off each minute, as a way of spreading the group out. Because of abilities, the paces were different, of course, balling up in some of the more challenging terrain. These endures were not all-out races, because there was time-keeping involved. Each rider tried to maintain a speed average of 24 MPH. For me, that meant always riding as fast as I could. I'd still be out of my allotted finishing time before I completed the 100 or so miles. We must have been an obnoxious event for those living along our path, which was made up of paved roads, dirt roads, abandoned roads, fire roads, power line service roads and sometimes even cut trails in the woods. In one event, we event took a water tunnel that went underneath a highway. Sweeps didn't always find the missing or broken down.

This is a long way of saying, our perceptions change of what we see as right or wrong as we are guided. Hopefully by someone who knows, or by experiences. I know as a leader that it is not easy to say no to people who desire to join you on a hike. I know from experience, that I want to limit the number of people I hike with. I think the point made somewhere above about not being able to keep track of a large group that has spread out is a valid one.

JCarter said:

What is this off-trail group size of 4? I don't see that in the WMNF Wilderness regs.

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From WMNF Forest Management Plan, Appendix E "Wilderness Management Plan" section 5.3 (emphasis original)

Wilderness Zone A (areas 500' or more off-trail): "Group number should be kept to a minimum, preferably four or fewer people but never more than ten."

Wilderness Zone B, C, and D: "Group number should be kept to a minimum, preferably six or fewer people and never exceeding ten."

If you are interested in this topic and want to read more here is the whole document that MichaelJ refers too.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5186043.pdf

The document includes more detailed descriptions of Zones A-D and also has maps depicting the six wilderness protection areas.

blacknblue said:

Does the leader even have any responsibilities once they begin the hike? What's the advantage of being a participant?

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't take a hike of that caliber with anyone except some trusted friends.

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Keep in mind in the Meetup group posting referenced the term Leader is not used. The poster is listed only as an Organizer. Hence, any responsibilities of a leader are avoided.

peakbagger said:

its federal permit obtained from the district supervisor. It can be a can of worms as the supervisor can put restrictions on its use in the WMNF. The llama bus that used to run in Evans Notch was only permitted in Evans Notch and the Kilkenny region

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Interesting - thanks!

The maps (here: http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5186043.pdf) reminded me that the only Wilderness areas for the Pemi Loop are from near the Guyot Shelter Spur (I don't remember exactly where the sign is) to the Bridge over Franconia Brook.

Also of note to me was the line 'Only campsites showing no former human impacts should be selected for use.' (page 28). This directly contradicts the LNT practice of using established hardened (legal) campsites when available.