Do you use NNN BC ?

I have read many of the old threads here on back country skis and have researched a fair amount. I've concluded that I want no-wax, metal edge, double camber skis for back country touring, probably Rossignol BC 65 or something similar.
I want to use skis much as I use snowshoes - as tools to access the back country in winter - but I hope the skis will allow me to sometimes travel faster and further. I'm also hoping to occasionally ski down sections of trail rather than walking, thus saving a little wear on my vintage knees and hips.
I would like to someday learn the telemark turn, but that is not my immediate goal.
I live in Vermont and expect to ski parts of the Catamount Trail, bits of the Long Trail, un-plowed roads and assorted hiking/bike paths and trails. I'll probably do some trips that involve strapping the skis to my backpack and switching to spikes or crampons to bag a peak or reach a viewpoint. I also hope to do a few overnight backpacking trips on skis.
My question is about the boot/binding combo that fits what I want to do. I'm leaning towards NNN BC. Does anyone use these bindings and have any thoughts on the pros and cons? I've ready plenty of opinions on 75 mm bindings (which I am also considering), but I'd like to hear from anyone that uses NNN BC for the type of trips I'm interested in. Thanks in advance.

I won't be able to answer your NNN BC directly, so I will defer on that. Just going to comment that I've skied that area a few times, leaving from the Bolton Valley Nordic Center. The folks who dragged me there are 3-pin die-hards, so I became one as well. The positive, from my relatively limited knowledge, is that you are on your way toward tele-gear when the time comes. Also, some of those trails can be a bit much in touring gear, so you want some heavier gear and be able to do a tele-survival turn. That's where I am at.

Funny, I invested in NNN BC after an AMC backcountry skiing course. The instructors all had three pins but were of the opinion that three pins were doomed and that NNN BC was the new standard. Funny that was close to 20 years ago and I don't think their opinion came through. I got locked out of the market as unfortunately no company makes a boot that will fit (plus my skiing abilities are marginal at best).

You can't tele in NNN. (Well, it's possible, but not for you, and not for me.) If that's your end goal, go with 75mm. NNN-BC is excellent for touring, moderate climbing and descending, and is easier to use. 75mm duckbills are better for descending, especially in tele or extended snowplow. There are (or were) more 75mm options but as tele shifts to NTN for beefier skiing I'm not sure where the numbers are going. There will be fewer 75mm heavy tele boots over time.

I only own 75mm and I prefer it for a few reasons. The main one is that all my skis and boots are compatible, but that's probably not a big issue for you at this point. For the lightest gear NNN-BC has the clear advantage in kick and glide. It's more efficient, more comfortable, and the boots are perfect for combining light weight with warmth/control. Once you start carrying a pack and going on steeper inclines I think the 75mm platform offers much more control and stability - I've never been fully comfortable on NNN-BC in those conditions. Finally, for extended time in the woods there is the issue of NNN-BC icing up, making it difficult to get in or out of the bindings. Counter that with broken 75mm bindings and I think that last point is mostly a wash.

I think you can do everything you want with NNN-BC except transition to tele. I'd use 75mm myself but you can be perfectly happy with NNN-BC.

My ski gear is also 75mm only--in part for compatibility across all of my gear but also for ruggedness, control, ability to field repair, and ability to Tele turn. (Back when I started, the choice for BC was 75mm or cable bindings.)

You might also want to think twice about double camber for BC. Tracks go over bumps and dips and as you pass over a dip the pattern will be unweighted or even up in the air.* The snow may also be too soft to allow you to concentrate your weight on the kicker effectively. Many BC skis are "camber and a half"--a shallow second camber that is meant to be a compromise between single camber and double camber. Single camber also turns better than double camber. (Single camber will give a more consistent kick with some pattern drag for a waxless ski and will work well with a waxed ski except that the kick zone wax will wear a bit faster than the tips and tails.)

* Wax has a significant advantage here. If you grip wax the entire ski (a properly chosen wax will both grip and glide), then you can get traction from any part of the ski. FWIW, I have both waxable and waxless skis and choose according to the snow conditions and have also waxed my waxless skis to good advantage in certain conditions. (Kicker skins can also convert waxable skis to waxless if the conditions demand it.)

A key to BC skiing is flexibility--track and snow conditions can vary wildly on a single trip or between trips.

Doug

If you're planning to use skis on mostly flat ground, then NNN-BC will work very well, and be efficient. But for most things sloped and ungroomed, I think you'd probably prefer the stability and power transfer that comes from a 3-pin binding like the Voile Mountaineer or the Rottefella Super Tele, or perhaps even something with a cable.

Also, for what its worth, if you plan to use skis as snowshoes and if you plan to go straight from ski terrain to crampon terrain, it sounds like you plan to be in some rugged terrain. (The only time I've gone from skis directly to crampons in VT is above treeline on Mansfield.) For that, you may want to consider a ski that is shorter and wider than the Rossi BC-65, like maybe even the BC 110 or 125.

Edit: to answer the question, I don't use NNN-BC for backcountry skis. All 75mm.

I have the Rossi BC65 skis with NNN-BC bindings. I'm very happy with them for casual backcountry skiing (hiking trails and bushwhacks), but they're not suitable for serious descents. I haven't tried a heavy pack for overnight trips with them yet.

Dana said:

I have the Rossi BC65 skis with NNN-BC bindings. I'm very happy with them for casual backcountry skiing (hiking trails and bushwhacks), but they're not suitable for serious descents. I haven't tried a heavy pack for overnight trips with them yet.

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I've got a 60mm Fisher Outbound (waxless, double camber) NNN-BC setup, and it serves me well for accessing backcountry areas over easy terrain with greater speed than I can manage with just snowshoes. These trips typically feature moderate uphill on the way in, and consequently a wonderful/speedy downhill exit. A good example if this is Stub Hill near NH's northern tip. Over 9 miles of moderate snomo trails, my group gained 2000' of elevation before switching to snowshoes for the final summit assault. The skiers in the group were slightly faster than the snowshoers on the ascent, and significantly faster on the descent. That's really the sweet spot for these skis. On trips like this, I'm typically schlepping 25-30lbs, which definitely detracts from my stability, maneuverability and balance, but it works. The skis also do a good job pulling a pulk, so long as the trail is relatively flat and the conditions not icy. However, on a Baxter schlep which was a mix of snowy and icy stretches, skins proved to be the easier way to go.

The chief limitation, at least at my skill level, is that turning on the downhills is tough. What little edges these guys have are hampered by the double camber. So to turn, your options are step turns or side-weighted snowplows (aka 'make a pizza'). On slopes that would be called middling-green at a downhill resort, I start feeling challenged. Of course, icy conditions make things worse, [very rare] packed powder better.

So it's clearly a tradeoff. For backcountry skiing on easy terrain in good conditions (and hence lots of kick-glide opportunities), it's tough to think of a better setup. For more difficult situations, you definitely want to go for wider skis and the greater control offered by 75mm boots and bindings. No doubt about it, though: comparatively speaking, you're trading away most of your kick and glide capabilities in exchange for the improved downhill control, even with the lightest of boot choices.

Alex

I'm in much the same boat as you. I'm hoping there will be salvation in someone coming up with a NTN system that has boots which will also work with step-in crampons, but that's a long ways away.

In the meantime, I've concluded the only way to know what I want is to play around. I got two pairs of boots and three pairs of skis, all three-pin of varying degrees of aggressiveness, and all for the right price (0) from folks who'd upgraded their gear. I'll spend some time on them this winter and see. If you've got gearhead ski-bug friends with deep pockets, ask about some basement spelunking.

I still have a pair of metal edged, waxable, Karhu Kodiac skis with heavy duty Rottefeller bindings available to anyone who wants and will use them. PM me if interested. Not sure if they would be suitable to OP, but someone who reads this might want...Free. I could bring them to Pat and Audrey's potluck next weekend.

My skinny skis are NNN-based, but my light & moderate bc gear is three-pin, and I love the control and mix-&-match capability of using different three-pin boots & skis.

I saw a guy once near the top of Cascade Mountain (Adirondacks) ascending and then jump-turning the steep and very narrow trails like he was born to it; that's above my pay grade. But lots of approaches in the DAKs and Whites are AWESOME on skis. He had 3-pin bindings.

I will not, however, ski with a heavy pack again: when you do fall, the extra weight will pile-drive shoulder, elbow, hip and knee all at the same time. First the right, then the left. No thanks.

And you can indeed use a duck-bill boot with crampons. In March of 2009, I was able to ski about two-thirds of Mount Chocorua's Champney Falls Trail, snowshoed to near the top, switched to crampons for the scramble, and stood in shorts on the summit in blue-bird weather. The ski back down was awesome (minus the brush-o-nine-tails), on Voile 3-pins and medium-weight Karhus.

And lots of good year-old gear can be found on ebay, craigslist and at your local recycle center. I've gotten good stuff real cheap (or free) this way.

Please tell us your findings when you get out there!

I switched *from* NNN BC due to icing about 6 miles into the Pemi wilderness (several times) - VERY scary trying to jab the ice out while your fingers are effing freezing!!! And then being afraid I'd get stranded... could not close them!!! I use BC70's (BC65's were too narrow for me - I sold them on ebay). Now I use 3-pin. I don't have any hope of turns with any skinny ski regardless of binding... if I'm touring for turns I use my splitboard.

Anyway, I carry snowshoes/crampons/micros if I'm going to hike (using my leather duckbills) a 4K after skiing a long approach. I also carry skins for the skis if I might need them.

--M. said:

My skinny skis are NNN-based, but my light & moderate bc gear is three-pin, and I love the control and mix-&-match capability of using different three-pin boots & skis.

I saw a guy once near the top of Cascade Mountain (Adirondacks) ascending and then jump-turning the steep and very narrow trails like he was born to it; that's above my pay grade. But lots of approaches in the DAKs and Whites are AWESOME on skis. He had 3-pin bindings.

I will not, however, ski with a heavy pack again: when you do fall, the extra weight will pile-drive shoulder, elbow, hip and knee all at the same time. First the right, then the left. No thanks.

And you can indeed use a duck-bill boot with crampons. In March of 2009, I was able to ski about two-thirds of Mount Chocorua's Champney Falls Trail, snowshoed to near the top, switched to crampons for the scramble, and stood in shorts on the summit in blue-bird weather. The ski back down was awesome (minus the brush-o-nine-tails), on Voile 3-pins and medium-weight Karhus.

And lots of good year-old gear can be found on ebay, craigslist and at your local recycle center. I've gotten good stuff real cheap (or free) this way.

Please tell us your findings when you get out there!

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Spot on! http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/gTIAAMXQPatTIk4H/$_35.JPG

I have nnn bc bindings on Karhu gt xcd skis. A few years ago I took them out on a groomed [alpine] ski area to work on turns. I was able to do some inelegant parallel skiing, but the thought that I would teach myself to telemark on them was a non-starter.

I spoke to an instructor who was skiing around on his teles while instructing alpine skiers and he told me that he could tele on just about anything, but probably not on what I was wearing.

The boot-binding connection is good enough for most of what I do, but it lacks the lateral stability for controlling precise turns; in other words you can go off into the hills, but choose your battles wisely.

I still would like to learn to tele one of these days.

Since you already decided I hope you won't mind my 2 cents.

Consider the fact that for many hiking trails your skis could be too fast.

If you plan on carrying backup snowshoes I would alternative suggest getting a pair of HokSkis as a backup and use them on too knarly descents.

Of course that would probably require a change to 3pin ��

Agree with both of the above.

I learned to tele on XCD GTs, but I had 3 pins on them so I at least had a decent connection to the ski. It was a struggle; XCD GTs are basically spears, and they are designed to go straight.

For real backcountry, the best tools are short, wide, shaped skis and a solid boot and binding. I have watched videos of the Norwegian demonstration team pounding moguls in little sneaker boots and skating skis, but that's because they've been doing it for 6000 years. The rest of us need good equipment. NNN "BC" is a farce. The "BC" means "a slightly steeper trail at your local park." Go with solid gear.

The main reason NNN-BC isn't good for tele is that the flex point is wrong. You want to flex at ball of foot but NNN flexes as the toe. Makes it almost impossible to tele unless you already are an excellent tele skier and have impeccable balance.

This guy makes it look easy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjDDeDCPUwo
But he's a great skier, the conditions are perfect (4-5" of light fresh over packed base), and you'll notice that he never lifts the front heel. That's what tele looks like with NNN-BC, it's kinda sorta tele but not really.

Of course, any day on snow is a good day.

I'm a fan of NNN BC boots and bindings. I'm a big guy, and the same setup works well on my touring center/in-track skis and my lighter backcountry skis. So one pair of comfortable boots (Alpina 1550's) does double duty for me. I find the NNN BC paired with XCD GT's or SBound-88's work great for general tooling around in the Whites on all sorts of trails and conditions.

As others have mentioned they're not great for telemark turns due to less lateral stiffness. Another issue - I have managed to rip the bar right out of a boot toe while tele turning (but it might have been a latent flaw in the boot). I have a full-on heavy duty tele setup when playing in the steeps and deeps - it's a lot more fun that way in any case.

My philosophy with lighter gear is that if I think I'll need skins to get up a hill I will probably have trouble getting back down... (but you can always use the skins on the descent to throttle your speed).

There are three flavors of NNN BC bindings, and I've used them all: Auto, Manual, and Magnum. You definitely want the Magnum bindings - wider boot platform will give you a little more control, and they are less prone to problems with icing up. The Auto bindings are fine for groomed trails but can be an exercise in frustration in deep snow. The older Manual design did not clear ice under the toe bar very well, but looking at the catalog it seems redesigned to use the Magnum mechanism, which I've never had a problem with.

A sliding snowshoe is exactly what I'm after often with ski use. One caution I have realized when picking a ski type regarding float out of unpacked snow is that width does not necessarily translate to float in New England snow. I'm not referring necessarily to downhill performance, but rather the ability of the ski to snap up out of deep snow while kicking and gliding, especially with varying snow density layers. Older style skis had a lot of tip curl, and many newer models depending on the brand are being made disappointingly flat. I can't even give you a count off the top of my head on how many xc/bc skis I own, largely due to assuming different float performance aspects with widths (all always have their preferred useful place!). But my favorites for deep snow touring right now and for more challenge on steeps are the old Trax Fishscale GT 210's I picked up for free from the side of the road. Tip curled like an elf boot and super long for my weight and size, love the float I get off trail. For moving around in the puckerbrush and cutting and dragging brush, the old 175 Trax Bushwhackers- frustrating when trying to get some glide though. Me- 75mm.

Friends don't let friends take sketchy, ice-prone bits of plastic into the backcountry. Buy the 75 mm Rottefella Super Telemark. Your family will appreciate it every time you come back from an outing. If you absolutely feel the need for some flair, get the French copy with the frou-frou name.

I can hear the howls from Arlington, MA right now on that last reference.