Forgot how bad Polartec Fleece is

We discussed this quite a while ago. I should just throw it out.
LL Bean Polartec Fleece. Traps and holds moisture like a sponge in a zip lock.
Avoid.

Wow! Never heard that before. Details (shell, base layer, et c.)?

this is a jacket. you can google Polartec Fleece. nothing necessarily againsr LL Bean except they made and sold this one. Polatec is/was about cheap "soft shell" material, i guess. "Waterproof and Breathable!!" but it's not really either.

I have transitioned back to merino wool layers this year after several seasons trying fleece. I find it gets wet too. Not sure if this is a function of my soft shells/hard shells. All I know is that merino wool doesn't do it in the same shells I use so I ditched the fleece.

DayTrip said:

I have transitioned back to merino wool layers this year after several seasons trying fleece. I find it gets wet too. Not sure if this is a function of my soft shells/hard shells. All I know is that merino wool doesn't do it in the same shells I use so I ditched the fleece.

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I'm surprised more hikers haven't figured this out.

Polyester fleece will soak up water quickly if dipped in liquid water. However, water does not enter the fiber. Some proportion of the water will drain due to gravity if the fabric is hung up (or worn).

Wool will soak up water slowly and eventually become soaked if dipped in liquid water. The wool fiber consists of a hydrophobic sheath with a hydrophilic core.--the water is held in the core. Some proportion of the water will also drain due to gravity if the fabric is hung up (or worn).

* Both wool and fleece maintain a significant fraction of their insulation value when damp,
* Fleece has a higher warmth-to-weight ratio than wool.
* Fleece is more wear resistant than wool.
* Wool is fire retardant, polyester melts.
* Wool is very stink resistant, polyester is not (for baselayers).
* Either can be fairly wind resistant or permeable.
* Neither compresses very well for storage.

Some personal observations and comments:
* I have had wool baselayers and main insulation since the mid-1970s. (Wool insulation and fishnet or (solid) wool baselayers were the "standards" back then.) Shortly thereafter, polypropylene (rapidly replaced by polyester) and polyester base layers and polyester fleece main insulation became available. Thus I have had both for a long time. I have new and old versions of both. (I won't discuss down or down-like polyester fill insulation here.)
* I switched from wool main insulation to fleece primarily because of the weight.
* For baselayers, I still use both and choose based upon the expected conditions. Generally I choose polyester for drier conditions and wool for damper conditions.
* I hand wash all of my fleece/polyester and wool--fleece wets faster, but it also appears to dry faster. (Comparison of similar thickness baselayers.)
* FWIW, I wear military surplus wool pants...

I don't dip my clothing into liquid water in normal use... I may sweat into them (ie slowly introduce water on the warm side) or emit water vapor into them (again on the warm side). Both fabrics handle these conditions well. (FWIW, I often feel the dampness when I sweat into a wool baselayer but am less likely to feel it when I sweat into a polyester baselayer, probably due the the difference in the speeds with which they soak up the sweat. I generate quite a bit of heat and have to be careful to minimize sweating.)

IMO, both polyester (fleece for main insulation) and wool are both good good fabrics for both baselayers and main insulation.

Doug

What the real Doug said.

The other Doug

DougPaul said:

IMO, both polyester (fleece for main insulation) and wool are both good good fabrics for both baselayers and main insulation.

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I'm not surprised that some hikers see a difference.

I use Patagonia Fleece exclusively and never have a problem with it. I have also used Patagonia's Capaline underwear with great success. Although my Capaline bottems wore out this year early after many years of use. Before I could replace them, a friend asked me to go to Sam's Club with him, browsing the isles, i found a pair of long john bottems made by " Omni Wool" they seemed nice so for 20 bucks I grabbed them. They are not only very comfortable, but have performed extremely well all winter. Sorry Yvon, no Capaline this year, I saved about 50 bucks there.

DougPaul said:

IMO, both polyester (fleece for main insulation) and wool are both good fabrics for both baselayers and main insulation.

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jfb said:

I'm not surprised that some hikers see a difference.

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I'm not surprised either--there are several perceptible differences and minor performance differences. And opinions can legitimately differ. (Besides, my old wool baselayers are slightly scratchy merino wool and are very easy to distinguish from polyester... )

Doug

sierra said:

Although my Capaline bottems wore out this year early after many years of use. Before I could replace them, a friend asked me to go to Sam's Club with him, browsing the isles, i found a pair of long john bottems made by " Omni Wool" they seemed nice so for 20 bucks I grabbed them. They are not only very comfortable, but have performed extremely well all winter. Sorry Yvon, no Capaline this year, I saved about 50 bucks there.

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I once looked around a bit and found some non-hiking clothing stores (eg Sears) carried wool long underwear. I'm not surprised that you can save money compared to the brand name items in hiking stores. However I also found things like cotton inner layer, wool outer layer constructions so check carefully before buying.

Doug

Guys, you go out in winter, you work hard, and you get wet. No matter what the inner layer is.

My old man used Swiss "fishnet" long underwear and he got wet too.

Hard to avoid.
cb

Good discussion. My point was specifically about the name brand fleece "Polartec". Avoid this material, in my experience. The Yankee in me has prevented me from throwing out this one jacket, which occasionally gets circulated into use.

Chip said:

Good discussion. My point was specifically about the name brand fleece "Polartec". Avoid this material, in my experience. The Yankee in me has prevented me from throwing out this one jacket, which occasionally gets circulated into use.

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Polartec is a brand name that originated with with Malden Mills in Lawrence, MA. (Malden Mills went bankrupt in 2007 and has been bought out by Polartec, LLC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malden_Mills

The Polartec name for polar fleece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_fleece has been applied to a variety of fleece fabrics so the performance may vary with the version. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pile_(fabric)

It was my understanding that the Polartec fabrics were generally of better quality and there certainly are worse. (For instance I have a cheap fleece blanket that sheds when you use it...) At one time, Patagonia worked with Malden Mills to develop advanced fleeces for its products. (Don't know if they still do.) I don't know if the quality of Polartec fabrics changed with the buyout.

Doug

DougPaul said:

I once looked around a bit and found some non-hiking clothing stores (eg Sears) carried wool long underwear. I'm not surprised that you can save money compared to the brand name items in hiking stores. However I also found things like cotton inner layer, wool outer layer constructions so check carefully before buying.

Doug

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The material for said underwear is Polyester with a "Wool Blend" I suspect the amount of wool is small.

DougPaul said:

I once looked around a bit and found some non-hiking clothing stores (eg Sears) carried wool long underwear. I'm not surprised that you can save money compared to the brand name items in hiking stores. However I also found things like cotton inner layer, wool outer layer constructions so check carefully before buying.

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sierra said:

The material for said underwear is Polyester with a "Wool Blend" I suspect the amount of wool is small.

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It has been a while since I did the looking around, but IIRC I found a number of combinations/blends. Typical combination/blending fibers would most likely have been cotton, polyester, and/or nylon.

FWIW, my Stil-Longs* long underwear (made in Norway) from the 1970s is 15% nylon, 85% wool. However it was purchased at a hiking store. Most of my other wool long underware/baselayers are 100% wool (also purchased at hiking stores).

Doug

I swear by my TNF "Denali Fleece" (aka Polertec 300) insulating layer.

I once wore it to summit Mt Washington is sub-zero temps, and roasted because I'd put on too many layers for fear of getting cold (fleece zip T base layer under, and Goretex shell over it all). After several hours of sweating profusely, I feared I would get cold when the climbing stopped. But I felt completely dry and warm the entire decent. When I got back to the trail head and removed my shell, I discovered a think layer of "snow" between the shell and the fleece. As near as I can determine, the fleece wicked all my sweat away where it evaporated, the re-condensed as frost between the fleece and the shell - enough so that it really did look like a 1/2 inch of snow. I was still warm and dry.

Rick

BillyRay said:

When I got back to the trail head and removed my shell, I discovered a think layer of "snow" between the shell and the fleece. As near as I can determine, the fleece wicked all my sweat away where it evaporated, the re-condensed as frost between the fleece and the shell - enough so that it really did look like a 1/2 inch of snow. I was still warm and dry.

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Frost on the inside of a waterproof-breathable shell is pretty common on colder days. Gore-Tex has pretty low moisture permeability in the cold so it is more waterproof than breathable under these conditions. The best ways to prevent it would be to use a more-breathable shell (eg eVent fabric) or a VBL shirt next to your skin.

However, the frost on the shell suggests that the moisture was collecting on the shell and not in your fleece and therefore not reducing the insulation value of the fleece. Just make sure you shake the frost off the shell (and the outside of your fleece) before going somewhere warmer where it can melt and soak into your fleece.

Doug

DougPaul said:

FWIW, my Stil-Longs* long underwear

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OMG you're old.

I bet you even had a 60/40 parka at some point. Wait, I guess you did: Any companies still make windshells with the 'old' 60-40 cloth ?

I'm old enough for the shell to be "waterproofed canvas/cotton" UGH so heavy!