National Park Proposal East of Baxter Heating up

I'm kind of with you on this but only kind of. Sort of. I can sympathize. However my old age observance is that the odds of properties in private hands staying available to the public are slim. The old way of lumber companies ownership are over. The new ways are some stupid golf courses or mansion log cabins that get occupied a few weeks at a time.

As much as old growth forest being sterile ... that sounds pretty bad huh, but I grew up in places where walking through these sterile forests was a zen moment. The big trees create a shade which reduces the growth of brush. This results in a nice way to walk through the forest. Makes bushwacking a pleasant experience ;-)

egilbe said:

As much as I love trees, I'm ok with forests being used, rather than "protected". Wild fires do more damage to a forest than selectively cutting areas of valuable timber. The wonderful thing about forests is that they renew themselves. Young forests are a haven for all manner of wildlife, browse for moose and deer, shelter for birds. Old growth forests are sterile, except for the old trees.

Click to expand...

Having canoed the East Branch of the Penobscot River from Matagamon down to Grindstone, I have some fairly strong opinions on creating federal ownership of these lands. I have always found the economic promises to be outlandish with this proposal, there simply is not that much to attract the average american to this area. If somehow it were to draw enough people to create the projected economic boost, there would be chaos on the East Branch-think Saco River North. The river is challenging; there are few campsites, there are a number of (significant) portages, it does require different skills or routes depending on water levels. To create a National Monument/Park would lessen the experience to those of us who have been able to historically use the land. There is already a lot of conserved land in Central and Northern Maine, at best I see a National Park/Monument further diluting the interested population, drawing visitors from the AMC & Baxter.
In my hometown, there are a couple of significant pieces of conservation land (450 & 600 acres). During my childhood (70' & 80's) these properties were privately owned but open to all for walking, horseback riding etc. I grew up using these properties freely. Today, both properties are owned by The Trustees of Reservations (TTOR) Since the TTOR has taken over management of these properties, the increase in usage has been overwhelming. Parking lots have been built and are still overflowing every weekend. People come from far and wide to use these formerly unadvertised properties. Trash and dog waste has escalated to the point that I choose my access points to avoid the heavily traveled routes. I see similarities in creating a National Park/Monument-the people you will attract are not necessarily the sort that might respect the woods as most of us respect them today.

https://bangordailynews.com/2016/04...national-monument-could-run-through-portland/

The split between the two Maine's has been going on for years and this is just a latest example. There have been several initiatives of late that have been primarily oriented towards regulating activities in rural Maine that were fought primarily in the three prosperous southern maine counties. Many folks in the prosperous counties are people who moved in from out of state and many are pretty clueless about anything north of Augusta. There was an observation I have run into a few times that many in the southern counties think Augusta is central Maine and Bangor is far northern Maine. Geographically Bangor is a lot closer to central maine and even it is probably 60 miles south of the center of the state.

peakbagger said:

https://bangordailynews.com/2016/04...national-monument-could-run-through-portland/
There was an observation I have run into a few times that many in the southern counties think Augusta is central Maine and Bangor is far northern Maine. Geographically Bangor is a lot closer to central maine and even it is probably 60 miles south of the center of the state.

Click to expand...

Here in NY, folks from the city think Westchester County is "upstate."

https://bangordailynews.com/2016/04...ts-reject-national-park-and-monument-in-vote/

Patten is the logical gateway to the NP and would most likely would have the most subsidiary commercial development (much to the consternation of Medway East Millinocket and Millinocket). For the few that have headed through the area to the north gate of BSP or the back way to far northern Maine, its extremely rural and not a lot of evidence of prosperity.

The pro park/monument effort has moved to Washington DC and southern Maine and therefore the impact of this vote is minimal. The state legislative delegation had stated that local support was required for them to support the project so barring a change, this pretty well finalizes that the path to the NP will be via a national monument designation.

There is speculation that Obama is holding off on the monument designation until later in his administration as the designation may prop up a republican representatives campaign.

If someone wants to visit the area, this may be the summer and fall to do it as I expect once the designation goes through, there will be an initial rush of folks and possibly a delay in getting federal staff in place to take over administration.

http://www.pressherald.com/2016/04/27/maine-voices-national-monument-proposal-a-historic-opportunity-for-katahdin-region/

Contrary to what has been previously inferred, there is quite a bit of local support for some sort of park/monument. Given that the current proposal amounts to a minuscule amount of land (150,000 acres out of the 10 million+ acres of unorganized territories), the argument that federal ownership will somehow further impact the forest products industry rings hollow to me. It's hardly going to save the region but it's a start. What do I know though, I live in the "other" Maine so my opinion carries little weight. Opposition to this just boggles my mind.

The PR from both sides is ramping up. The Head of the National Park Service is holding a hearing in the region this week. One of the southern maine newspaper chains is running frequent pro park editorials. Several national park support groups are also ramping up involvement. The Maine governor and various conservative groups are cranking up their rhetoric. The current strategy has definitely shifted away from any attempt of getting local acceptance (a condition that 3 members of the congressional delegation have imposed before they will support the designation). There is also a ramp up in justifying the designation despite local opposition using past designation efforts.

I expect its going to be an interesting week as the NPS hearing is held.

I'm sure if a corporation such as Nestle Waters wanted to sponsor the park, the NPS would be all for it. This corporate sponsorship of our national parks is disgusting.

egilbe said:

I'm sure if a corporation such as Nestle Waters wanted to sponsor the park, the NPS would be all for it. This corporate sponsorship of our national parks is disgusting.

Click to expand...

Raise the money and pay the same amount, and you can edge out the corporations...

Private individual or corporation what is the difference? I guess the corporation probably doesn't pick the location for the park while an individual does and attaches strings on land that that isn't even owned.

TCD said:

Here in NY, folks from the city think Westchester County is "upstate."

Click to expand...

Seems like everything in NY State is referred to as "upstate"
I grew up in northern NY, along the St. Lawrence River. Massena specifically. It's Northern New York up there you lunkheads.

Buffalo and Rochester are not "upstate" either. They are in western NY.

Oh, and if anyone asks (they do) "Oh, you live in Buffalo, you must get into the city (NYC) often?" It's hard for them to fathom just how large the state is.

Reminds me of a New Yorker magazine drawing , " a New Yorker's view of the world" where everything shrinks away after New Jersey and Westchester County and Washington , DC!

billski said:

Seems like everything in NY State is referred to as "upstate"
I grew up in northern NY, along the St. Lawrence River. Massena specifically. It's Northern New York up there you lunkheads.

Buffalo and Rochester are not "upstate" either. They are in western NY.

Oh, and if anyone asks (they do) "Oh, you live in Buffalo, you must get into the city (NYC) often?" It's hard for them to fathom just how large the state is.

Reminds me of a New Yorker magazine drawing , " a New Yorker's view of the world" where everything shrinks away after New Jersey and Westchester County and Washington , DC!

Click to expand...

I went to college in Rochester, and whenever someone asked where I was, I'd likely say NY. They would then ask how I liked the city. "Don't know, never been. It's also a state too."

injektilo said:

http://www.mpbn.net/post/north-woods-national-monument-supporters-outnumber-opponents-local-forum

Click to expand...

Its definitely a PR battle these days which is weighed against the anti designation folks as EP has a far bigger checkbook. The forum in the link was held soon after a decidedly anti designation congressional field hearing. Either side have call lists that they can use to have their supporters show up with meetings. Many of the anti designation folks work out of town and cant attend daytime forums so generally the daytime ones show support for the designation. To date the only representative votes in the region for or against have been against but one of the scripts of the pro designation folks is that the local pro folks don't dare to speak up as pro as they fear reprisals. The southern Maine Papers, Portland Press , Morning Sentinel and the Kennebec Journal all have taken an decidedly pro designation slant in their editorials along with the Bangor Daily so anyone looking for news will get the impression that there is groundswell of support.

I expect its a done deal but apparently there are some political consequences for the designation that drive delaying the designation until late in the presidents term. Practically, the black flies are still pretty nasty in the north woods so having a press conference at the site should best wait until fall.

I think now would be a perfect time to have a press conference in the woods. Show those delegates from Washington what they are trying to protect...the breeding habitat of Maine's state bird, the Black Fly.

peakbagger said:

Its definitely a PR battle these days which is weighed against the anti designation folks as EP has a far bigger checkbook. The forum in the link was held soon after a decidedly anti designation congressional field hearing. Either side have call lists that they can use to have their supporters show up with meetings. Many of the anti designation folks work out of town and cant attend daytime forums so generally the daytime ones show support for the designation. To date the only representative votes in the region for or against have been against but one of the scripts of the pro designation folks is that the local pro folks don't dare to speak up as pro as they fear reprisals. The southern Maine Papers, Portland Press , Morning Sentinel and the Kennebec Journal all have taken an decidedly pro designation slant in their editorials along with the Bangor Daily so anyone looking for news will get the impression that there is groundswell of support.

I expect its a done deal but apparently there are some political consequences for the designation that drive delaying the designation until late in the presidents term. Practically, the black flies are still pretty nasty in the north woods so having a press conference at the site should best wait until fall.

Click to expand...

There have been two previous hearings. A small meeting with Millinocket officials in which most spoke against... which contrary to your comment on daytime forums, was held during the day. The larger forum held in Orono (later that evening I might add), in which around 1500 people attended, was predominately pro designation according to someone I spoke with who was there. Recent polling done in Maine's second congressional district shows overwhelming support for some sort of designation (over 65% support). I was chatting with someone within the Penobscot Indian Nation's government and he indicated that his sense was that there is more local Pro folks but that the Anti folks are more apt to speak up. I've seen you imply before that this is being driven by those from away and/or southern Maine and have to ask, what makes you think that? There is certainly opposition to this but my feeling is not as much as some would like people to believe.

The hearing I referred occurred just a few days ago, one was a congressional field hearing (anti) and one was set up by representative Poliquin (who is anti designation) the field hearing had invited guests and the pro individuals invited to speak elected not to attend , the second hearing was more of an open forum and the pro folks elected to direct their energy to the second meeting. There was much press about the second hearing and the overwhelming support for the park expressed but the flip side is that it was a fairly last minute hearing and the pro groups get out the supporters effort was more successful than the anti designation folks.

The prior meetings I believe you referred to was by the NPS administrator. All indications are he is very much pro park designation, the visits were predominately a courtesy to Angus King who is in the unfortunate position of attempting to placate both sides. The conditions by senators King and Collins to support the NP proposal previously was that the national park process should be driven by local support and input to provide a compromise solution. When the NPS effort got delayed by this and local votes went against it, the response by the pro group was to switch to the monument process which didn't require congressional support and hired a national lobbying firm to lobby for the designation in Washington. In my perception from afar, the shift away from local support to regional support has been noticeable especially in the press. Individuals associated with Acadia National Park have been especially active appearing in several editorials. Perhaps I have selective viewpoint as I expect pro supporters do but it would take a rather extensive research effort to track the use of media pro or con.

There are very effective "locals" that are pro. The problem with using the term "local" is that its self identifier. Matt Polestein a very vocal proponent would consider himself a "local" but he is very polarizing figure in the region after the MAGIC fiasco. Many in Millinocket would consider him a flatlander that throws money and influence around running his whitewater rafting trips and recreational cabins in the region. Others who have spoken up are folks who moved in from out of town buying when low and hoping to cash in on tourism related businesses that hopefully will spring up. Lucas St Clair grew up in the region before his mother cashed out and he and his siblings were treated to ivy league educations and the luxury of working for fun, he represents himself as local but I expect the majority of the region would beg to differ. There definitely is struggling tourism industry in the area and they are willing to grab hold of whatever lifeline is offered.

Contrary to popular belief there are forest dependent businesses that could provide future industrial work again in the region. The lack of carbon regulations and the enhanced oil recovery boom has slowed this industry but the reality is once carbon regulations are put in place, the demand for renewable transportation fuels along with natural feedstocks to replace fossil fuel feedstocks is going to skyrocket and set of studies a few years ago by the DOE indicates that renewable fuels made from biomass feedstock grown in predominantly the Northern Forest are the only viable replacement for fossil based transportation fuels. Fossil fuels will always be cheaper but at some point the carbon impact of them are going to make them unavailable. The same reasons that caused GNP to build the facilities in Millinocket and the current combination of inexpensive renewable electricity, access to a major interstate, the extensive Golden Road system and direct rail to a deepwater port in Searsport make the Millinocket region a logical future regional hub for a renewable fuels industry. This industry will most likely need environmental air permits to operate and a NP would add a fairly extensive permitting effort which could be costly to implement. Here is link to a review of the PSD permitting that would be imposed on any future industry should the monument be converted to a NP. http://www.fws.gov/refuges/AirQuality/permits.html. Putting in a future National Park does not preclude development but most likely would make the region far less attractive to the industry. The regions land owners are concerned that adding the national park diminishes the long term value of the income off their land and understandably are opposed.

peakbagger said:

The hearing I referred occurred just a few days ago, one was a congressional field hearing (anti) and one was set up by representative Poliquin (who is anti designation) the field hearing had invited guests and the pro individuals invited to speak elected not to attend , the second hearing was more of an open forum and the pro folks elected to direct their energy to the second meeting. There was much press about the second hearing and the overwhelming support for the park expressed but the flip side is that it was a fairly last minute hearing and the pro groups get out the supporters effort was more successful than the anti designation folks.

Click to expand...

I think this was the the same hearing, only separated into two parts. Sort of like a drama play with an intermission. First part was where Poliquin and Lepage got their Derps out and the second part was where people for pro and against were allowed to speak. Initially the against folks were not invited but after some outcry they allowed them to register to speak.