Hiker Rescue Call 4/3 - Spring time

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peakbagger

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http://nhpr.org/post/hypothermic-hiker-mount-washington-calls-help

I expect a lot of folks are getting surprised by the conditions out in the woods especially this past weekend. Much of the snow has melted but the ground is still freezing on occasion at night and the trees and undergrowth are not really budding. This means more runoff and morning icing conditions. It is interesting that the had the option of changing footwear and waited until F&G arrived to assist.
 
I had a scheduled trip for Sunday that we canned because conditions were too gnarly for a trip that we had billed as an early spring/shoulder season trip. The combination of cold, wind, possibly fresh slippery precip was dubious. Knowledge that the trails were solid ice and that people would likely be induced towards veggie holds and brush crashing hit point 1 of LNT pretty hard, as well.

Mild winter is not yielding to an easy spring this year.
 
jniehof said:
I had a scheduled trip for Sunday that we canned because conditions were too gnarly for a trip that we had billed as an early spring/shoulder season trip. The combination of cold, wind, possibly fresh slippery precip was dubious. Knowledge that the trails were solid ice and that people would likely be induced towards veggie holds and brush crashing hit point 1 of LNT pretty hard, as well.

Mild winter is not yielding to an easy spring this year.
Click to expand...

Just a question, ok maybe two. First off, I'm not that big into LNT, so what's point 1? Second question, is it really considered bad to grab a tree or bush?
 
My personal opinion is that a lot of trails get widened by people grabbing a tree or bush at tricky spots. Repeated grabbings can lead to fewer leaves, broken branches, and eventually a weakened or dead tree. The last person who grabs it may get a nasty surprise when the tree or branch breaks and they go flying! :eek:
 
Grabbing a leafy branch of a healthy tree is a very minor sin - deer and moose and porcupines do far worse, and trail maintainers routinely clip back branches that get close to the trail. LNT is more of a concern in the icy seasons, when crampons and improper use of ice axes can strip the bark from roots and trunks, especially the smaller woody growths that are already struggling on steep and/or windy terrain. This can greatly weaken or kill the tree, which speeds soil erosion. Hikers may then proceed to the remaing veggie holds at the new trail margin...
 
sierra said:
Just a question, ok maybe two. First off, I'm not that big into LNT, so what's point 1? Second question, is it really considered bad to grab a tree or bush?
Click to expand...

Really? Kind of surprised to hear you say that. You seem like a generally respectful and responsible hiker who does things the right way. What about LNT is objectionable or unimportant to you?
 
I've hiked and climbed for many year's, I don't minimize the impact that I have on the mountain's I climb. When technical climbing, I've hooked grabbed and tied off off on many a vegetation. While I don't do it to maliciously hurt anything, it's fair game to me. I tend to think in big terms ideologically. If huts, trails and various used are acceptable, how is a tree or branch off limits? I try too pas through in a responsible way, but to be honest, I see my impact as small. I also consider, that the mountains are a usable resource and I don't mind using them for my pleasure. The mountains are logged, cut and taken for way more then I impact them. LNT is taken to far IMO, not that good stewardship is unwarranted. But, I see the mountains as my playground and if I fing them a bit, so be it. They will absord the impact and survive.
 
I also agree that LNT can be taken too far, for example, they advocate what colors to wear! :confused: And if you truly want to Leave No Trace, you should just not go! :rolleyes: The fact that there are several different levels of LNT Training (that cost $$$ and last several days) doesn't seem necessary to me. I get the basic message. I try to follow it.

sierra said:
But, I see the mountains as my playground and if I fing them a bit, so be it. They will absord the impact and survive.
Click to expand...

That attitude might have worked 40 years ago, but given the number of people in the woods these days, the multiplication of that attitude can be quite damaging. I'm sure you've seen some place where the trail is really wide, imagine a steep descent. What used to be a narrow trail is now 15 feet wide, because people have constantly grabbed at roots, branches, etc. Eventually the tree has been damaged too much and dies. Then it rots away or is pulled out and the bare ground or rocks are exposed. Now the next tree is the target. The process continues over and over again.

Of course, there are solutions, like a re-route, ladders, hardening the trail, etc. but these require lots of effort and have their own impacts.

I guess we're getting off topic here, so if someone wants to start a new thread, go for it...
 
Point 1 of LNT is "plan ahead and prepare." It's taken me awhile to "get" how this connects to LNT, so maybe it's the new "seeing it everywhere" thing, bear with me :) The most obvious example is people who show up for a spring/early summer hike wearing shoes with soles that get dangerously slick when wet, or that aren't waterproof and they aren't wearing socks that will keep them sufficiently warm when wet. So then it's "I have to trample the side of the trail because if I get my shoes wet I'll slip/my feet will freeze, and that's a safety issue." Sure, I always give the safety trump card over LNT, but when repeated failure to "plan ahead and prepare" gets one into situations where that tradeoff has to happen over and over, it's not really a safety issue anymore.

Veggie holds are largely a matter of your personal ethics, but it does put stress on the trees, they aren't always the most robust (which can lead to safety issues if you're the one to push it over), and it's the root system of those trees near the trail that keeps them from widening out. I do make a distinction between slinging a tree to rap (usually BIG and pretty robust) and grabbing whatever little thing happens to be handy. Yeah, it happens occasionally, but going out for a day of "well, I'm sure we'll be hauling our selves up with vegetation and crashing new paths right next to the trail" strikes me as poor form.
 
Last edited:
jniehof said:
Point 1 of LNT is "plan ahead and prepare." It's taken me awhile to "get" how this connects to LNT, so maybe it's the new "seeing it everywhere" thing, bear with me :) The most obvious example is people who show up for a spring/early summer hike wearing shoes with soles that get dangerously slick when wet, or that aren't waterproof and they aren't wearing socks that will keep them sufficiently warm when wet. So then it's "I have to trample the side of the trail because if I get my shoes wet I'll slip/my feet will freeze, and that's a safety issue." Sure, I always give the safety trump card over LNT, but when repeated failure to "plan ahead and prepare" gets one into situations where that tradeoff has to happen over and over, it's not really a safety issue anymore.

Veggie holds are largely a matter of your personal ethics, but it does put stress on the trees, they aren't always the most robust (which can lead to safety issues if you're the one to push it over), and it's the root system of those trees near the trail that keeps them from widening out. I do make a distinction between slinging a tree to rap (usually BIG and pretty robust) and grabbing whatever little thing happens to be handy. Yeah, it happens occasionally, but going out for a day of "well, I'm sure we'll be hauling our selves up with vegetation and crashing new paths right next to the trail" strikes me as poor form.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on that, in that situation the damage could have been prevented by using proper gear and technique. I was simply trying say, in the event that you need to impact the environment, LNT can to far. Example, MRS is lowering a litter, using tree's and such as anchors, that supersedes, LNT. I guess comments sense out there is what it comes down too.
 
sierra said:
I've hiked and climbed for many year's, I don't minimize the impact that I have on the mountain's I climb. When technical climbing, I've hooked grabbed and tied off off on many a vegetation. While I don't do it to maliciously hurt anything, it's fair game to me. I tend to think in big terms ideologically. If huts, trails and various used are acceptable, how is a tree or branch off limits? I try too pas through in a responsible way, but to be honest, I see my impact as small. I also consider, that the mountains are a usable resource and I don't mind using them for my pleasure. The mountains are logged, cut and taken for way more then I impact them. LNT is taken to far IMO, not that good stewardship is unwarranted. But, I see the mountains as my playground and if I fing them a bit, so be it. They will absord the impact and survive.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. The way you worded your original reply I got this horrifying image of you bushwhacking up the side of a trail, machete in hand, clear cutting a path to an outlook where you enjoyed a bag of Fritos and then just balled up the package and threw it in the bushes. :)

I agree there is definitely an overkill level to LNT. I think most of us here probably follow the intent of LNT, not necessarily a literal translation of the wording. In most cases this will keep things about as they are over the short and long term. jniehof's point is well taken too about "plan and prepare" and having the gear to be ready for all situations so you don't have to abandon LNT out of laziness. With the volume of hikers out there now a lot of tiny actions does add up to major impacts in the woods. Following LNT isn't exactly a horrible burden to follow in spirit to preserve what we have out there now.
 
DayTrip said:
Makes sense. The way you worded your original reply I got this horrifying image of you bushwhacking up the side of a trail, machete in hand, clear cutting a path to an outlook where you enjoyed a bag of Fritos and then just balled up the package and threw it in the bushes. :)

I agree there is definitely an overkill level to LNT. I think most of us here probably follow the intent of LNT, not necessarily a literal translation of the wording. In most cases this will keep things about as they are over the short and long term. jniehof's point is well taken too about "plan and prepare" and having the gear to be ready for all situations so you don't have to abandon LNT out of laziness. With the volume of hikers out there now a lot of tiny actions does add up to major impacts in the woods. Following LNT isn't exactly a horrible burden to follow in spirit to preserve what we have out there now.
Click to expand...

I do like the image you portrayed though, fritos and a machete, sounds like fun. I will give you one realistic example. Some suggest not hiking during mud season, to my minimize trail damage, that's not something I do. I still hike and believe the trails will be fine. Then again, in the spring. I take the time to clean water bars as I go and to clear trails of as many sticks as I can. The water bars especially warrent clearing. You can really save a section of trail doing just that.
 
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