Proposed Huntington Ravine Warning Sign

http://www.concordmonitor.com/NH-white-mountain-rescue-hunting-2884547

It would be interesting to see if a sign would make a bit of difference on rescues in this area. I guess it would possibly establish a boundary to establish the point where hikers become "reckless"?

Somewhat like the Yellow alpine zone signs I really wonder if someone out on a hike will stop read the sign and turn around. I expect the major use of these signs is unfortunately a nice photo or selfie backdrop.

I would like a sign posted at the top of the trail emphasizing that going down the trail from the Alpine Garden is extremely unwise and dangerous. The short distance to Pinkham just seems to suck folks in. I have encountered numerous groups over the years considering or attempting to head down this trail. I would expect for the majority they make it down but got a lot more excitement than they expected. The most memorable was a father and son team encountered about halfway to the fan with a frame backpack and 50 foot rope. They would drop throw/drop the pack down the trail the length of the rope (sending a shower of debris downslope) and then the son would head down to the pack. If the pack wasn't on the trail, the dad would get it swing back and forth until the son could catch it. The father would then do the same and then they would do it again.

I am curious if someday, the Huntington's Ravine Trail gets added to the abandoned trail category like the prior steepest trail in the whites, the Adams Slide Trail?

Signs would certainly be an obvious and inexpensive way to to try and reduce the number of incidents and rescues. The wording should be very forceful to ensure it sets the appropriate amount of fear into would be hikers. When I used to downhill ski a lot of resorts had signs like this at the top of some of their double diamond runs at a gap in the fencing so there was no disputing whether or not you saw the sign and knew what you were in for as you entered the trail. People clearly don't have or read the AMC Guide or other references so an effective sign I'm sure would help. Maybe they can add a QR code to the bottom so the selfie generation can scan it and see horrifying videos of the actual terrain.

In our town here in Vermont we have a beautiful spot called the Huntington Gorge. Its a summer swimming hole, but there are some spots that are very dangerous based a water flow rates. Something like 19 people have drown there, including a state trooper trying to recover a body. There are all kinds of signs there now, including one that has the names of drowning victims. If its a hot day, like today, people will be there jumping into the gorge from the high cliffs. There will always be the mentality of it can't happen to me, signs be damn. Can't hurt to put them up, but it won't stop the majority of folks.

peakbagger said:

http://www.concordmonitor.com/NH-white-mountain-rescue-hunting-2884547

Somewhat like the Yellow alpine zone signs I really wonder if someone out on a hike will stop read the sign and turn around.

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Several years ago I met a group descending Edmands Path, who had done just that. They had passed me earlier in the day, and told me that they had turned around because of the apparent weather, when they saw the warning sign. I was surprised that the sign worked.

I think it would be helpful if the signs also had statistics regarding fatalities, injuries, rescues, etc to really hammer the point home, like "Since 1990 there have been 45 fatalities and over 2,000 rescues in the White Mountains" or something to that effect in addition to the generic warning. It would probably help to also say that rescuers could be several hours or even days away from helping you in an emergency. Really connect the dots for people instead of implying the dangers. It may not discourage somewhat experienced hikers from continuing but I would think it would scare away the weekend tourists and beginners.

As a related question, do other states have this type of signage? To date I have pretty much only hiked in the Whites. Does Baxter, or the Adirondacks or the mountains out West make use of this type of signage?

I don't have a problem with a sign like that, but just for that trail. I really don't want signs like that to be common. To be honest, you must consider a sign like that might have the opposite effect. I mean a couple of yahoo's just visiting and happen to head up to Tucks and see that sign. Hey dude look at that, some bad ass trail, let's go climb that SOB yeahaa! I joke, but I'm serious about the implication. I also agree with Peakbagger , make two and stick one up top while your at it. To be frank to this issue, the Whites are too accessible to the tourist that flock here from the cities below and once they get here, the trailheads are right on the road. There are much tougher routes out west, but you have long access routes to them that deter the casual passerby to get close enough to hike on a whim. I'm all for trying to prevent accidents, but it's kind of like sticking your finger in a breach of the Hoover Dam, it might help a little but it won't stop it all.

Perhaps this will help in the recovery of funds for rescues? The state could not argue that there was a sign that was ignore, making the case for negligence easier to prove.

I'm in the please no more signage camp. I feel, especially where I live and work in NY, that I am bombarded with signage and constant warnings. Some warnings are pretty legitimate but many defy basic common sense. Anyone who endeavors to climb Huntington's Ravine must have, or really should have, some degree of respect for the undertaking. I don't think a hiker just happens to find themselves on RT 16 and says, hey that looks cool, lets do it. There is some basic research that is undertaken. That basic research usually entails a guidebook or website that has a stated warning.

I see it much like "light pollution" found from many cities lights at night.

BISCUT said:

I'm in the please no more signage camp. I feel, especially where I live and work in NY, that I am bombarded with signage and constant warnings. Some warnings are pretty legitimate but many defy basic common sense. Anyone who endeavors to climb Huntington's Ravine must have, or really should have, some degree of respect for the undertaking. I don't think a hiker just happens to find themselves on RT 16 and says, hey that looks cool, lets do it. There is some basic research that is undertaken. That basic research usually entails a guidebook or website that has a stated warning.

I see it much like "light pollution" found from many cities lights at night.

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You'd think that is true but it is not. I regularly encounter people in the Presidentials who essentially have no clue where they are or how hard the trails they intend to take are. I meet people regularly miles into the woods that don't even have water or any kind of layer other than what they're wearing. A lot of these people don't have maps and I'm sure have no clue there is a guide book. The only possible way of reaching these people is to have something on the actual trail to warn them. Randy makes a good point about the trail head accessibility too. It provides access to the mountains for a much more casual group of "hikers". And I think the overlap you see now with runners, cross fit athletes, etc only adds to that. Just because you're in good shape doesn't mean you can't get lost, overwhelmed by bad weather, get injured, etc. Many of these people do zero research. After all "it's just a few miles".

And I'm with you on the signs. One effective sign at the bottom of the trail (but far enough in that there is no confusion about which trail it describes) and one at the top in similar position so that the trouble portion of the trail is clearly identified. Two signs on a handful of trails I think is a fair trade off to save money and lives in the Whites, especially in areas with repeat issues like Huntington Ravine or the "wrong turn" so many make at the top of Lafayette. There is a clear pattern of trouble on these trails.

Barkingcat said:

This discussion reminds me of the 1994 Cheryl Weingarten incident in Tuckerman Ravine, and the subsequent lawsuit filed against the White Mountain National Forest by her father in Weingarten v. USA.

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Mt. Washington is the tourist mountain of all tourist mountains, so I'd like to see a sign. The very steep Holt Trail on Cardigan has one.

Although as mentioned above, Huntington Gorge in VT keeps increasing its body count, even with a sign.

A graphic pic of the angle and stern warning might help..a pic tells a thousand words...maybe simple words of fatalities etc. on that trail. Sign doesn't have to be large. Put the fear of God into them. There's an old song "Signs"..ha..but if it saves a few lives etc. so be it. It wouldn't bother me.. to me that area is sign free compared to Boston area.

No sign. Every trail has somebody for whom it's too much; when do you stop signing? "I thought this one would be fine since there wasn't a warning." Put a(nother) sign at Pinkham saying "trails are not maintained for easy travel and have varying difficulty; attempt no trail without prior research" and one at the top and call it a day.

I hiking down the Great Gulf trail this weekend from the summit to Spaulding Lake. I would rate this as far more difficult trail with considerably more potential for getting in trouble due to the consistently loose footing an possible rock falls. I expect that a litter carry would be far more challenging than even Huntington's . So should there be hazard specific sign posted at the base of this trail warning of the potential for significant rock fall? Even if it was posted, would someone who had hiking in the 6 miles to the base of the slide be convinced to turn around due to the sign. Some could argue that Huntington's issues are mostly due to its location off a major trail heading up Washington plus a higher visibility due to winter ice climbing and therefore deserves a special warning compared to more remote trails?

Reposting from http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthre...angerous-hikes&p=431702&viewfull=1#post431702 :

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What I find interesting here is that it seems that most people on Huntington Ravine Trail who call 911 realize that they are in deep trouble before they actually get hurt, so I suspect the sign is meant to be a way to reduce the cost of rescue missions. Having said this, I wonder how many people have actually died on this trail (if any)?

Hell Brook Trail up Mansfield has this sign at the top https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...lsdys17mgUpkP32b7D9_6dQgCCo/s912/DSCN3140.JPG

Pretty apt.

I'll play devil's advocate and say enough with signs and warnings. If it saves money in the long run, then at least there is a financial benefit. But if the goal is to try to save people from themselves, then I say enough is enough. Signs and warnings are so commonplace today that no one pays attention to them. And I don't think society as to save everyone from themselves. And they are a blight on the trails. If folks don't like NP transmission towers, they shouldn't like signs all over the place either warning people not to do stupid things. What's next, traffic lights at Thunderstorm Junction? Maybe a light board sign that flashes the weather. But I think I am in the minority and that most folks think that we need to further dumb down just about every activity because there are risks. Ok, flame the heck out of me.

I think I'm with NHClimber. I can't see both sides of the signs argument, but personally feel they become white noise after a while.

I also agree with an earlier comment that part of the problem is that many of the mountains here are so easily accessible. I see the trailheads more crowded every year. Some of that has do with the lists as well. Short of abolishing the lists and moving the mountains somewhere else, I'm not sure what the solution is. Someone somewhere is going to get themselves into a pickle no matter what.

Dingo said:

I think I'm with NHClimber. I can't see both sides of the signs argument, but personally feel they become white noise after a while.

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As an example of signs being white noise, I was in an indoor pool not long ago. From where I stood in the shallow end, I counted 57 signs (exits, emergency exits, rules, no diving, spa chemical schedules, warnings, rules, no "P" in our "ool," etc.

It might not apply to this particular case, but the reality of the pool situation is when there are 57 signs to read, I read none. It's all noise at that point. I wonder if anyone has done a study to determine the "critical mass" of signs.

I'm not a fan of adding signs or higher fences in general. This one might make sense. That said, it would be nice if people read a trail description before heading out on the world's most dangerous small mountain.

Raven said:

It might not apply to this particular case, but the reality of the pool situation is when there are 57 signs to read, I read none. It's all noise at that point. I wonder if anyone has done a study to determine the "critical mass" of signs.

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I run into the same problem with long posts. A sign that is sufficiently terse (i.e., uses pictures/symbols) and is thoughtfully placed can be effective. A hotel putting up signs for no other reason than liability might not be trying as hard.

The Six Husbands trail has a few ladders on the steepest spots and it's in a wilderness area. If folks are concerned about safety on the Huntington Ravine trail, maybe it's time to add a few ladders or staircases on the most exposed sections.